Green Giants – Episode 101

[03:54] Wes Ashworth:

I love that. I figured you’d share that the Peace Corps experience. I think that global perspective really stands out, especially because energy systems look completely different depending on where you start. I love that early example, too, though, just the farm and like the trees, that connection as well. You know, I constantly see this, how those early experiences can shape how you think about access, reliability and fairness over time really makes such a big difference. You’ve also said, you know, climate change is not just a technical challenge, but deeply tied to justice, equity, and power. When did that realization really click for you?

[04:22] Sachu Constantine:

We know that solar, basically solar and inverters and even now batteries, it’s like a toaster. It’s like an appliance. It’s not a mystery how it works. It’s relatively simple solution to implement. Why isn’t it out there at the rate that it should be deploying at the rate should it be? It’s about justice. It’s about equity. It’s about the agency. I mentioned that in the opening. How much choice do people have?

We live in a society where you plug something in and you flick a switch, you don’t think about the source of your energy or the impact of that source of your energy. That’s largely because in many ways our markets push questions of justice, of fairness, of impact and choice. They kind of push it out of the public realm, the public eye. I think it’s so important to bring that back because that’s how we will get people to push for the choices they want. Quite frankly, a vast majority of Americans want cleaner, more affordable, more reliable energy. They’re not getting it. They’re not getting it. Why aren’t they getting it? It’s because of imbalances in the distribution of justice and equity and market power. As a policy advocate, that’s the thing that I need to focus on.

[05:34] Wes Ashworth:

Absolutely. I want to build on that a little bit and just talk about how the system actually works today. Because from the outside, it often looks simpler than it really is. Those people assume better technology eventually wins. Most of time it’s true. Why is it not the whole truth or exactly 100 % truth when it comes to the energy system and how it actually works?

[05:54] Sachu Constantine:

Like any industry, any market industry, our sector, the energy system, has a lot of different players, a lot of different interests. Some of those, the incumbents, have had 150 years to establish their bona fides and their connections and their ability to lobby for change, to transact. Right now, we have clean energy producers, we have manufacturers in the clean energy space who really want to make large investments. They have an excellent product. They have a technically feasible, reliable and affordable product. They want to make large investments in those solar systems and in the batteries that go along with them.

But those long standing incumbent political actors and market actors and the regulatory barriers that have grown up to favor those incumbents challenge that eagerness, challenge that readiness to invest. Oil and gas interests, corporate utilities with upstream interests in extraction industries, regulatory officials who suffer maybe from deficits of information or time and need to answer to those with the loudest voices or even policymakers who have their own interests. They don’t always align with that clean energy technology, with that best technology that’s available.

Advocates, clean energy producers, we have to mobilize. We have to mobilize the communities that we support so that we level the playing field. To me, the best technology does win in a level playing field. We can build a cleaner, more affordable and equitable grid if we level that playing field by elevating the voices of the communities that are impacted and that want to make these choices.

[07:28] Wes Ashworth:

It’s well put. It does really challenge the idea that progress is automatic, even when the technology is clearly better. It highlights how much intentional coordination it takes to translate innovation into real world adoption. You hear a lot of times in the industry, this is a contact sport. This is a full contact sport. You can’t sit on the sidelines like it does take all of us, you know, pushing that to your point. You’ve worked inside regulatory bodies and in the private sector again as well, kind of seeing both sides of that. Where does the real decision making power actually sit in the energy system today?

[08:00] Sachu Constantine:

That is the million dollar question, isn’t it? Where should we be applying pressure? Look, the truth is, as you noted, it might seem simple on the outside, find the decision maker and put pressure there, but the truth is that everybody plays a role in this. At a very basic level, state level regulatory agencies have the power. I think the bigger question is who’s exercising their power? Who is able to use their power, their access to information, their access to investment dollars, their access to markets and customers, who’s using that power to shape the energy system today?

What we would like to see is those regulatory bodies, directed by the legislature, pushed by rate payers, to create avenues and markets that will then shape the energy system. What happens today, for example, is that maybe private sector companies in the solar and clean energy space will point to regulators saying they’re not creating the markets for us. Regulators will point to the private sector and say they’re not giving us the cheapest product or there’s other issues that they might try to point out. They both need to stop pointing fingers at each other and focus on what they can do, what their agency is. That’s in fact a big theme of my work is creating agency at all levels from the rate payer up to the regulator decision maker. and everybody in between.

[09:18] Wes Ashworth:

It really starts to paint the picture, like the complexity of it, how many different people are involved and, you know, it’s not just one clear, like, here’s the person go influence them. But it does take it at every level, you know, across the entire system and every facet of that as well, too. We’ll get kind of get more into that as we go. What’s something about how energy policy gets made that would surprise most people not kind of seeing what you’ve seen and from the levels that you’ve been in?

[09:26] Sachu Constantine:

Right. Sure. You know, this is a well-trodden path, but I still think it’s surprising to people. Energy utilities, your utility that supplies you your power and your gas, they don’t really, that utility, doesn’t make its money on that energy. It makes its money on the infrastructure and the services that it provides around delivering that energy to you. I think even though many people have probably heard that, really thinking about what that means and how it’s helped shape our energy system is really insightful, right? It’s telling when we think about how we’ve built up the system that we have and why it’s being maintained the way that it is. That’s actually another key policy lever. How do you change the way that utilities make money so that they make money by doing the thing that’s best for all of us?

[10:30] Wes Ashworth:

It’s a great point of clarity knowing how that works. Anything else you’re seeing like behind the scenes of when these energy policies are coming out or, you know, they’re changed or removed or those sort of things like, anything else that would surprise most people in terms of like how that happens, how it comes to be?

[10:47] Sachu Constantine:

I think something that I have observed, right, when we pretend that the market is totally free, that it’s just a competition of resources and a utility that’s dispatching coal, a coal generator or even a gas-fired plant, we assume, well, that’s because that’s the most efficient resource. But that’s not the case. The way it’s structured, there may be particular money to be had or there may be upstream interest.

Many of these utilities, public utilities, private companies that are public utilities, they’re actually owned by much larger energy concerns that have upstream interest. Maybe they own coal mines. Maybe they own the big coal-fired plant as well as being the utility provider. That kind of conflict of interest, I think, is important to keep in mind and something that people probably don’t realize.

[11:37] Wes Ashworth:

No, very important. Good clarification there as well, too and shining a light on that. You mentioned you started with utilities and there’s a growing narrative that utilities are either the barrier or the backbone of the transition. How should we really actually understand their role?

[11:50] Sachu Constantine:

I would say they’re a backbone, but they’re a backbone in sore need of some yoga training and maybe a little bit of reflection and meditative contemplative time, right? The utilities are, they are the structure. They’re the wires and the pipes and the transformers and the substations and the local circuits that help us collectively share the generation and use and distribution of energy. That is a critical role. Quite frankly, one of the bad outcomes that we should try to avoid is everybody on their own, everybody in their own little distributed pocket. The utilities are a way for us to collectivize, to socialize, to bring all of us into an interested transaction that we can share evenly. That’s a critical role, that planning function, that operational function, the knowledge that utilities have, these are critical elements of the transition.

I would never… solely categorize them as a barrier. The problem is, as we’ve said, that their interests and their incentives aren’t necessarily aligned. Let’s get them aligned. Let’s get some flexibility into that spine. Let’s get them moving and bending and being more aware of the space around them because that’s how they can really facilitate a clean, a rapid clean and affordable transition.

[13:04] Wes Ashworth:

Good insight. I like that analogy. The backbone, but needs a little stretching and get a little yoga in there and get some flexibility. That’s what we need as well. I love that. What are the most powerful forces kind of still slowing down clean energy adoption today?

[13:18] Sachu Constantine:

I’m not sure if I would characterize this as a force, but one of the major choke points for the deployment of more clean energy at the scale that we really need has been interconnection. That’s both the utility’s responsibility and a really complex issue that they face. How do you connect large generational loads? How do you connect a large number of smaller loads and all to keep a very complex machine running? This is the grid, as we know it, is the most complex machine that humankind has ever built, more complex than the space missions. It’s incredible, this investment.

How do we add new power to the grid? The regional grid operators all have slightly different policies and they may in fact already have their thumb, either intentionally or unintentionally, on the scale to prioritize fossil fuels over clean energy. I think that pressure, that complexity, is a major element in delaying clean energy adoption. PJM is a great example of that. 67 million people all across the eastern seaboard, they have this massive queue of clean energy that’s just waiting to be added to the grid. This is affordable, this is reliable energy, it’s homegrown, but it’s falling behind the fast-tracked fossil fuel plants that are being interconnected because of the interconnection rules and the resource adequacy values that it’s provided. That’s, I think, a major factor.

Then the other one, I think, is that we don’t have easy entry markets. We do not have an open-source level playing field market for solar or other clean energy sources with all of their attributes to compete. Energy is just one of the things. This is taking us back to physics class, right? But the energy that the electrons from solar provide is one thing, but our system depends on spinning reserve, on voltage regulation, on frequency regulation, on a number of other things. We need all of those capacity markets and ancillary service markets, all the things that the grid needs and provides to be marketized, opened up. I think if you can do those two things, solve the interconnection queue and really open up those markets for all the value, that’s going to be a way to check ourselves and get going at the pace we need to.

[15:29] Wes Ashworth:

I think as we kind of talk about both of those things, how deeply embedded it is in the system itself, which is why solving them often requires full structural change, not just better technology. It does require kind of a systemized change and kind of looking at that holistically. All of that, it’s a bit slow moving, right? But you’ve spent years in slow moving policy environments. How do you personally stay effective and motivated in these systems that don’t move quickly?

[15:54] Sachu Constantine:

Well, listen, I would have had a really hard time getting through my early experiences if I didn’t also develop a little bit of patience and fortitude, right? Staying the course against difficult resistance is always difficult. The way that I stay motivated, and honestly, it is exhausting. Wes, you’re right. I mean, I get tired. I get tired of these cycles through anti-clean energy rhetoric from one administration, and then you make some progress. The way that I have helped myself, right, is I think not only about my work as an advocate, but also my work as a trainer, as a mentor, as a coach. I can turn to the incredible staff that we hire at Vote Solar and I can say, okay, I am not making progress on solar. I am frustrated, but they have energy. They have talent. Let me do what I can to help them train the next generation of advocates.

Then once I’m doing that, then they re-energize. Then their energy, their progress, their ideas, their commitment and passion helps reignite my fire, kicks my patience in and I can come back to the fight, right? I get this great cycle of working with my incredible team, with our partners’ incredible teams and I find that that back and forth, thinking about the policy and then thinking about who’s implementing the policy and toggling between them is a way for me to keep fresher in this very long fight.

Let’s also remember, right, 150, 160 years, the grid has largely operated in the same way, right? There was rapid change right at the beginning, and then it sort of settled into a stasis. That’s what we’re looking for. I can derive some patience from knowing that once we get the conditions right, this is gonna proliferate. A little bit of patience now can lead to a lot of progress later. Go slow now to go far.

[17:35] Wes Ashworth:

Love that. I love the reliance on teams as well too, kind of pouring into the team and then in turn sort of you get re-energized back through them as well too. I love that. I love that you went there. I think the long-term mindset really feels essential in this kind of work. It speaks to the patient’s resilience required to drive meaningful change over time. As you said, it’s well worth it.

There’s a lot of momentum right now, like behind clean energy and many people feel confident about where things are headed. Generally, there’s optimism even with this the hurdles even with the kind of opposition and things like that as well too. But your work highlights that kind of how we get there, who it benefits along the way still depends on the choices we make today. There’s a belief in clean energy is inevitable, you know, because it’s cheaper and better. I guess what’s the rest of that, right? I think that’s part of the story, but what’s the rest of the story there that you typically share?

[18:25] Sachu Constantine:

That assumption, that belief is true. It is cheaper. It is more reliable in the long run, less vacillating. It’s healthier. I think the danger is in the assumption behind the assumption that that means we can just let it happen because that assumption means we have lots of time to make this transition, right? That it’s okay if in the meantime, the disinformation about clean energy or the disinformation or lack of information about fossil and its negative effects and the special interests that are dictating our choices, that’s the danger.

Because if we just wait for what is in fact inevitable, it is inevitable because it’s a better technology, because it’s a cleaner technology, because it’s more democratic and more open to a real market transaction when you get down to it. The problem is we don’t have a lot of time. Given the vested interests, given the special interests that are trying to preserve the status quo, relying on this assumption of superiority is what’s going to get us in trouble. The assumption itself is correct.

[19:31] Wes Ashworth:

I love that. It’s such an important nuance because progress can be real and still really require active stewardship, is what we’re talking about, especially when you look at the time as well too. It just reinforces that outcomes depend on decisions, not just trends. Don’t just sit back and like, it’ll happen. It is, again, active participant.

[19:47] Sachu Constantine:

One thing Wes, I mean, we know that coal plants are out of the money. They’re not economic. They’re not dispatchable. They’re not flexible. But DOE right now has manufactured a crisis. They’ve developed coal mascots to keep these plants alive. It’s true that they won’t long-term displace solar, but in the short term they will, and they will continue to spew emissions out of their smokestacks.

Every single ounce and pound and volume of polluting gas that gets out of those fossil smokestacks is harmful. It doesn’t do us much good to be right. It doesn’t do us much good to have the better, cheaper technology if we are allowing coal plants in Colorado, coal plants in the Midwest to continue to operate because it’s sold to us as just a temporary measure or something that we need to do right now. We really have to lean into that policy, that active stewardship to phase the fossil out as rapidly as possible and phase the solar and the wind and the other clean energy sources in as quickly as possible. Just because it’s better isn’t enough.

[20:52] Wes Ashworth:

Absolutely. Just because it’s better is not enough. I like that quote. Through your career, you’ve dedicated much of your career to solar specifically. How do you think about the tension between centralized energy systems and distributed solar and why does that distinction matter to you?

[21:06] Sachu Constantine:

Well listen, another word for tension is equipoise, right? It’s a balance between the two. I think 150, 160 years, we’ve grown accustomed to just not really participating much in the energy choices. The rub used to be, 10 years ago, you used say that people spent about seven minutes a year looking at their electricity bill and paying it and either grumbling about it or not grumbling about it, as the case may be.

One of the things about distributed energy is that it does allow you to have more insights into what your energy choices do. I think we’ve understood now that a flexible system that balances central resources, where you’re gonna still get the bulk of your power, we call that bulk energy, right? That’s gonna be 60, 75, 80% of our total energy is gonna come from that bulk system. But that 20% that could come from distributed, helps make the whole system more efficient. It makes it more reliable, more resilient, more able to preserve services, right? To keep delivering services even under very difficult or fluctuating conditions. Extremes of weather, extremes of economics, the current crisis that we’re going through in Hormuz and the volatility of gas prices. These are things that a balanced system, both distributed and bulk, can mitigate and can help us weather, so to speak.

[22:23] Wes Ashworth:

I like that. I think that the distinction is really important and I like the word balance there. I’ve been focused on that a lot lately. I think that the core of everything probably is balance, you know, and having both of these systems kind of work and balance each other and work in harmony and being more active as you go through it too as well. Let me ask you this, in your work, kind of as what you’re seeing as the clean energy transition accelerates, who is currently positioned to benefit the most and who risks being left behind?

[22:50] Sachu Constantine:

Well, at some level, and I don’t mean to be vague about it, but we all stand to benefit. Everyone stands to benefit. Every time someone is able to replace some unit of fossil combustion with a cleaner source of energy, that benefit can ripple through the whole economy.

I think the problem is that some at the edge. Those benefits come very late and they come in very, very small increments. We have had a system that assumes equal negotiating power, but communities don’t have equal negotiating power. They have had difficulty getting the rules to allow their schools, their communities, their local government, their fire stations, their homes to put solar on because the the rules are set in the central market over here. The regulators are hearing that. If you’re out in a community and your community, your zip code, your census tract, is receiving subpar service and you’re paying more of your income for these critical services, energy being absolutely essential to modern life, you may be one of the last to receive the benefit.

Part of what we need to do is recognize this is the affordable, the flexible, the type of energy that we can put into disadvantaged communities. We found that when we studied census tracts in Detroit, Edison’s territory in Michigan, that there were whole neighborhoods that were receiving subpar service and they happen to be low income and they happen to have less investments in the distribution system. Let’s just make sure that we are investing evenly and that we are helping the most vulnerable, the most impacted because frankly, investing only in the wealthier neighborhoods, in the distribution system, in those wealthier neighborhoods creates a vulnerability for all of us.

If we don’t help the vulnerable, that vulnerability comes back to hurt the whole system. The system stands or falls on everyone in it. I think that recognizing that is a way to really direct the benefits and make sure that we all arrive in that clean energy future together.

[24:47] Wes Ashworth:

Absolutely, well said and I think again step one recognition and then being intentional taking intentional steps to solve that issue and to you know achieve and promote energy equity. When people hear that, energy equity it can feel abstract. From what you’re seeing like what a success actually look like on the ground?

[25:06] Sachu Constantine:

At some level, and I don’t mean to oversimplify, but we need to buy our energy services, not have them sold to us. Really active choice is a way to promote justice, as long as we’re giving people equal negotiating power. That means open markets, transparency. If you don’t have that, if you don’t have that, like I said, lower wealth community in urban Detroit or in San Francisco or Philadelphia, they’re not going to see what’s behind the choices that they’re being offered. They’re not going to have the wherewithal to say, hey, I don’t want that polluting gas peaker plant in my neighborhood. I don’t want to have a fuel depot or coal trains rumbling through here all the time, I want a cleaner source of energy.

I think one of the ways that we need to prevent injustice from creeping into the system is radical transparency. Where are our energies coming from? Who’s benefiting from that? Then as we said in the last question, we talked about being intentional and understanding where the vulnerabilities are, where energy burden is felt the most and addressing those because addressing those communities and those needs actually helps everybody whereas only addressing the loudest, richest, most powerful voices ends up hurting everyone just as much.

[26:30] Wes Ashworth:

Absolutely. That clarity makes the concept tangible and measurable and it helps connect policy conversations to really real-world outcomes. Right now, there’s a real tension between moving fast and getting it right. How do you think about that tradeoff between speed and equity?

[26:44] Sachu Constantine:

I mean, fortunately, I think the most equitable path forward is also the fastest path forward. In the next 5 to 10 years, we are going to do a lot of planning for transmission access and making sure that we can site, properly site, big wind and solar and even battery systems that will move the needle pretty quickly, but it’s gonna take a long time to get to them.

In the meantime, we can put gigawatts of solar and storage onto homes, into garages, on businesses, on schools, that is the fastest speed to power, speed to market. We’ve got massive load growth right now, whether it’s from electrification, right? I think seven or eight percent, seven or eight gigawatts of growth in California alone from vehicle electrification, two gigawatts from data centers going in. Electrification of homes is going to add several gigawatts more. We need power quickly. The fastest way to market is by making sure that it gets on the homes of the people that are using it. That means in low income neighborhoods as well as wealthy suburban communities, get those virtual power plants out there.

If you want to talk about speed to market, let’s just harness the batteries and solar that are already out there attached to smart thermostats, attached to smart chargers. We can turn that on instantly and California has already shown the way with that with its DSGS, Demand Side Grid Services program. This is a working model that shows how the virtual power plant, the idea of stringing all of these distributed resources together in a coordinated fashion can actually act like a real power plant. It’s sitting out there waiting for us. That’s the instantaneous transformation. Then we can very quickly add to that. We can put more solar on roofs, we can put more batteries out there, we can get more smart charging, we can get better rates out there so fast that by the time we are ready to put those bulk services in place to really start to eliminate all the fossil from the system, we’re going to have a robust, resilient, modern grid ready and waiting for those resources.

[28:46] Wes Ashworth:

You paint a phenomenal picture there and that to me feels like winning. Those outcomes, that would be a true win. I want to talk about what it actually takes to win, to get to those outcomes. We’ve talked a bit about the intentionality, our choices and what we need to do for active participation. If the outcome does depend on the choices we make, the next question is actually what it takes to move things in the right direction. You lead Vote Solar at the intersection of advocacy and policy. What is the fight that matters the most right now for you?

[29:15] Sachu Constantine:

Right now, the theme that everybody is feeling, literally feeling at their kitchen table in their pocketbooks is the affordability question. Electricity prices and the cost of energy is skyrocketing at a moment when the ticket to entry, the price of entry into the modern economy is access to power, electrons, reliable, clean, steady electrons. Those have to be affordable. Right now we see massive energy burdens around the country. Every region experiences, at least a portion of the population is experiencing a heavy, heavy rise in the cost of energy. That is the dominant theme.

We have to address affordability. Luckily, solar is the cheapest, fastest to expand, most flexible resource that’s out there. I think at the same time, the other issue that we as advocates and policy makers have to think about is that load growth question, right? Data centers will be a large load. I think electric vehicles and home electrification is actually bigger in the end, but data centers really loom large for folks because they’re being located in their communities. They may have immediate local effects on cost, on water, on other types of impacts on the community.

Getting all of that right. Supplying the power in the cleanest, best, most efficient way possible is a really intriguing question and we think there are answers to it. That intersection then can lead to other solutions which help deploy solar and clean energy faster.

[30:46] Wes Ashworth:

Absolutely. I think the clarity is incredibly helpful in such a complex landscape. It does give people a sense of where focus on energy should go. I think that affordability, you as you brought up first is such a big piece of it. Right. I always think a lot of real change happens when people feel an amount of pain. Right. Like we see this sometimes of, oh, you know, we’re fine. We don’t want to mess with the status quo. It doesn’t affect me, you know, but the more it starts affecting people, more starts causing this pain, then you really do see those are kind of drives people to action and to really think about change. That’s kind of micro level, you know, that individual, but what specific policy changes could most accelerate solar adoption in the next five years?

[31:26] Sachu Constantine:

Well, we spoke to some of them already. One of them, I think is, and this is a little bit technical, but I think many in your audience will understand what I mean when I say resource adequacy. What credit should we give to someone’s solar on their roof and the battery that they have either in the garage or the side of the house or whatever? What should we call that? How much energy do we think that can provide? How much credit should it get? When we’re asking ourselves how to supply a certain amount of energy to the economy. That’s generally called a resource adequacy value, like what is its capacity? When we think about that virtual power plant concept, right? How we add all of those little pieces up really matters. I think that’s a very specific, very detailed policy change that would help us give the right credit to the system. Let’s understand that we’ve proven it out. Starting with Brooklyn, Queens almost a decade ago, the Brooklyn Queens interchange where they avoided an upgrade to the system by putting a lot of efficiency measures in. Now we’re adding in solar. I think that giving that value is one of the most important specific policy changes that we can make.

We did speak about interconnection queue reform. How do we do a better job of getting all of these projects that are sitting out there in the wings waiting to deploy? How do we get them online and running faster and more efficiently without imposing undue costs on the poor person at the point in the interconnection queue where a system upgrade is required? They have to now cover the whole cost. There’s all this jockeying for what position you’re in and then there’s delays in the processing. I think those two things, giving value to solar and reforming that interconnection queue is important.

But there’s one other policy that I think is really going to help us accelerate adoption. That’s this concept of balcony solar, this concept of plug-in solar. It does a couple of things. One is it helps address a market that is underserved, the renter market, the apartment dwellers. It’s harder to put solar and battery into your system. In places like Germany, very densely populated countries, they’ve opened up this spigot. That’s done two things. One, it’s put a fair amount of solar on multiple gigawatts over the last few years. But it’s also conditioned people to understand that solar is safe, it’s affordable, it’s accessible to everyone, it’s a market that we can all participate in, you can walk down to your hardware store, buy your solar system at a very low rate, kind of like buying an appliance, plug it into your home and you’re off and running. You making that choice, you making that safe, affordable, reliable choice, is also good for the whole system.

We’ve seen a number of bills to help streamline permitting and interconnection around the country. That includes this idea of safe plug-in solar. I think that’s a massive opportunity, at least psychologically, right? The total volume of plug-in solar isn’t going to be that much, but the psychological effect of it is really important.

[34:12] Wes Ashworth:

I appreciate you highlighting those three and to that last point, I think that the psychological effect is underrated. You know, real change and things like that start to happen. I was hoping you were going to mention it’s cool to see in Germany and kind of places in Europe how that’s just commonplace. You know, you go down to the store and just buy this solar and just say, there you go. Plugs in, you’re good to go.

But I’m hoping we see some of those things. I think, again, most importantly, and you highlighted three big ones and three big ones there, like the right changes can unlock progress very quickly. Good to see some progress and what you’re seeing as well.

Thinking about solar as well, you we’ve talked a little bit about the problem and kind of where it’s at, but how do we make solar not just available, but truly accessible and affordable to everyone?

[34:58] Sachu Constantine:

Well, luckily, solar contains the seeds of its own success. Let’s look at Australia. Let’s look at Germany. Let’s look at other countries, which are providing solar at a fraction of the cost that we are. Because at its core, it’s ground glass, it’s silicon, and a few metals, and magic, right? That magic, the ability to convert the energy and the light from the sun into usable electrons, it’s an incredible boon. It’s a free fuel. We need to have people be able to buy it. We want to not have to sell it to them. Where finance, the cost of finance, the cost of customer acquisition, the cost of all this permitting and interconnection, these are the things that are making it unaffordable for us. It’s not the technology itself.

Let’s get to that technology. Let’s have that technology bought by consumers in the market. keep that competition going, make sure that utilities and the energy system is using all that value. I think that’s the way. Instead of paying $4.55 per watt like we do for residential solar in this country, let’s pay under a dollar a watt like they do in Australia. That would be a real game changer.

[36:07] Wes Ashworth:

Game changer indeed. I love like we have the examples, right? Australia, we’ve talked a little bit about Germany and Europe and those like we’ve seen this in other countries, people that have traveled all over the world and kind of see these, these different systems and kind of how it all works and things like that. It’s like, we have some models to look at and follow and go like that worked here, that worked there. You know, we can combine the best, best of both if we get it right. But you know, policy is tricky. Obviously it’s hard to move. But when you’re trying to move policy, what does it actually take to build the coalitions needed to win?

[36:37] Sachu Constantine:

Vote Solar takes a fact-based solutions-oriented approach, but it’s a people first approach. What we’ve discovered, we’ve been at this now 25 years. We work at the state level, which inevitably means that we’re working with communities and local groups, local environmental groups, local energy advocates from a variety of backgrounds and with different levels of resource and knowledge and having that on the ground, continuous, patient, steady, transparent progress. That is the key to coalition building.

We try really hard to keep people focused on one state or one region, a small number of states so that they can really become part of the regulatory furniture so that they can become part of the coalitions because inevitably there might be some differences. We might as a professional solar organization, we might see the benefit of allowing this one program to go forward because it will give us this wider set of opportunities. Like utility ownership of front of meter, grid tied batteries, for example. There’s a lot of folks in the coalition rightfully suspicious of utilities owning more assets and resources. They have been misled and underserved by that same utility so many times, there’s real cause, real justification for their lack of trust.

But they can trust us because we’ve been on the ground with them, working with them, understanding their priorities for now years in many cases. It took us years to get a program off the ground in the Midwest. Now that program is really, it’s fire. It’s fire. On the move in Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois. That’s because we spent time building that coalition, earning trust so that we can have disagreements or differences and people will say, okay, we understand what you’re doing. We appreciate that. Please keep pushing on that thing. We’re gonna do this thing here together, but we’re still a coalition. We’re still gonna work together. Then most of the time, what we find is that we are able to align the policy priorities with the community priorities. That is what leads to change.

[38:36] Wes Ashworth:

That’s the magic, right? I love the people first approach and how you spell that incredible. You know, as we’ve kind of gone through this, like to close, I do want to look ahead, you know, focus on what gives you optimism as this transition continues to build momentum. If you look ahead to, you know, 2035 and beyond, like what is a successful energy transition feel like in people’s daily lives?

[39:02] Sachu Constantine:

I love that question, right? We have lots of visionaries in this country who’ve described a future. I like to get very, very detailed and think about what it would be like to take a walk in my neighborhood. I did actually happen to sit on a task force in Berkeley where I live in California and talk about Berkeley in 2050 and walking out of my home, looking at my watch, which was telling me that my solar generators were kicking on. I could see the windmills down at the marina and the electric shuttle trundled by my house. I could hop on to a car-free pedestrian zone downtown. Everything is solar powered. Batteries are running. There’s news on about storms out in the Sierra somewhere. But the lights aren’t even flickering because we have local sources of power as well as a really flexible grid out there.

That’s what the future should feel like, of Ulysses walking through Dublin, enjoying the sights and sounds. Behind it is this quietly humming, but really efficient, flexible system, deriving power from the sun and keeping modern life going. It’s not radically different. Yet it is incredibly radical to think about moving away from combustion, burning things, which is the first thing that cavemen did was they burned things to now harvesting the energy from the sun and letting it drive our homes and our cars and our cities.

[40:26] Wes Ashworth:

I love that so much. I love how kind of granular it is and you kind of like made me like picture it right. That vision makes the transition really feel real and tangible and connects that kind of system level change to everyday experience. I love that so much. What gives you the most optimism right now? When you look at the direction of clean energy overall, like what are you optimistic about?

[40:44] Sachu Constantine:

We’ve spoken to a lot of it. It’s a technology that time has come. The cost is right, the technology is right. This is not rocket science. Super excited that we’re doing things like putting missions around the moon. That’s incredible, right? The solar industry starts with NASA developing sources of power for its astronauts in orbit. Those first solar systems. which were incredibly expensive, but they gave rise to the ground mounted, the stationary terrestrial solar systems that we’re using today.

When I see that sort of thing, the moonshot, I think about a sunshot and I think about the power and the possibility of technology and innovation. I think about how having a moral and an ethical and a justice lens focuses on the right technology. It gets us to focus on the right things that can move fastest. Speed to market, we talked about that before. Speed to market means putting it on rooftops in communities that need it. It means putting it on schools and hospitals and resilience centers all around the country where it’s needed. That moves us towards that clean energy future faster. When I hear, we talked about this as well, when I hear the young people on my staff feeling so passionate about it, understanding this issue and looking for ways to translate it into mass appeal and mass market movement and letting us all be part of something bigger than ourselves. That’s what really gives me optimism.

[42:04] Wes Ashworth:

I love that. So much optimism there and clearly a lot of progress happening across multiple fronts and those signals of momentum are what keep people engaged in this work. You mentioned the younger generation as well too. Like gosh, never have I seen like a more purpose driven generation coming up in the workforce. They want to be a part of big things. They want to solve big problems. They want to leave the world a better place. Like they’re, they’re the people that are going to, I think, take this to the next level, you know, and I’m excited to see it as well. Over your career, what progress are you most proud of that gives you confidence we can get this right?

[42:36] Sachu Constantine:

Working at Vote Solar, the idea that we can be advocates with an optimistic voice. We are not naysayers. We’re not doom scrollers. We’re not pulling our hair out. Well, I may have done some of that, but we’re not gnashing our teeth. We are looking for solutions. We have made progress state by state. regulatory agency by regulatory agency.

When I see things like DSGS in California, the grid modernization work in Massachusetts, what’s going on in Colorado, Surja, the Clean Reliable Grid Affordability Act in Illinois, and I see that progress in the market aligns with people’s interests, aligns with their needs. That is what I’m most proud of, that we are able at Vote Solar and at Solar United Neighbors and GridLab and many of our partners, that we are able to provide a solution that aligns with people’s interests and with their needs and with their pocketbooks. That, I think, is what I’m most proud of.

[43:31] Wes Ashworth:

So much to be proud of there. It’s a reminder of how much has already changed, you know, and the progress that’s been made already. Final question, you know, for somebody that’s listening right now who wants to help shape a more just and effective energy future, what’s the most important step they can take next?

[43:48] Sachu Constantine:

That’s a great question. Let’s remember that utilities answer to us. They are public utilities. We offer the franchise, the monopoly franchise to them through a regulatory agency, and that is a power that we have. The next step for everyone out there is to live into their power, take their power. Look at what Jane Fonda and the activists just did in Salt River Project in Arizona. Voted out old school dinosaur fossil fuel thinking board members and put a slate of clean energy forward thinking progressive candidates in place who will consider the facts who will take decisions on this public utility to benefit everyone.

If everyone can step into that power whether it’s responding to surveys from advocates about the regulatory agency and regulatory policies or showing up on the Capitol or just sending your notes and comments in. For years now, we’ve seen public participation in these decision-making processes really affect the change. You don’t have to buy solar yourself. You don’t have to buy a battery yourself. If you can get the powers that be that shape the market to make a decision based on your interests and your benefit and the planet’s benefit, you can really affect the system.

We saw it in Florida, where Because of popular response, the governor had to veto an anti-distributed piece of legislation. A very conservative fossil-oriented governor had to create a pathway for solar. We’re going to see it in California where energy is a big part of the agenda. The Public Utilities Commission is subject to the public. Remember that. Remember that. Step into that power. Take every opportunity you can to express your voice and your agency. It’s not about spending all the money on solar. Great if you can do it, but anybody that does it is gonna benefit you and the markets can be adjusted to make sure that we all get to do that if you speak up.

[45:40] Wes Ashworth:

So good. Such a powerful place to land and it turns a complex conversation into something actionable and personal for each person. I love that so much. Sachu, this was such thoughtful and energizing conversation. I really appreciate the perspective you brought, the work you’re doing to help shape a better energy future.

To everyone out there listening, the transition to clean energy is not just something happening in the background. It’s something being actively built in real time. As we heard today, there’s a real opportunity to make that future more inclusive, more resilient. and more impactful for everyone.

If you enjoyed this episode, share it with someone who should be part of this conversation. As always, thank you for listening to Green Giants. Be sure to follow the show, leave a rating, check the show notes as well too, and then share this with your network. With that, we will see you next time.