Green Giants – Episode 121

Michelle Boquiren Urben (01:27)

Sure. electricity prices. I’m Filipino American and I can tell you that in the Philippines, median income, sixty percent of it, is spent on electricity. So if you can if you have to pay for that.

you can’t afford to even go into the realm of investments, which I spent most of my career on, right? But let me take a step back because it wasn’t just Saudi Arabia. I was actually born in the Philippines, 1973, which was the height of the global energy crisis. Back then President Marcos declared the energy crisis and declared and ordered that nuclear be adopted in the Philippines. So I feel like I’ve come full circle. You know, I came from, you know, I spent a lot of time in Saudi Arabia. My dad Work for Aramco. But we were living in Bataan in the Philippines, nearby where the first nuclear plant and the only nuclear plant in the Philippines was built. And this was a Westinghouse facility or plant. It was meant to deliver, I think, like over 600 megawatts of power. And, you know, alongside the Philippines, the other countries that use the same technology, reactor technology, was South Korea and Slovakia. And here we Are 40 years later, you know, we know how far in terms of development, economic development, South Korea is versus the Philippines, right? So electricity is really what drove me to fall in love and really support Curio. we need to find a way to lower electricity prices, and also you know, the other side of that is I’m a mother now. And You know, I’ve spent years in asset management and wealth management, but don’t feel confident that I’ve left the right legacy and environment for my daughter to thrive.

Wes Ashworth (02:59)

Yeah, it’s a powerful story. And I you know, I think it’s always fascinating, you know, kind of hearing that tie and really what made it personal and what brought it home for you to really say, like, I want to make a career out of this and make a difference and leave a legacy that you can be proud of, especially, you know, as a mother and those sort of things too. So I really love that a lot. you mentioned Curio there, which we will definitely get into and you know, we’ve had on the show before. So I’d encourage listeners to go back and check that out as well. But what did you kind of see in Curio?

That made you move from sort of later stage venture into just deep tech so quickly. and what did that decision sort of force you to relearn about investing?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (03:34)

Sure. Just to add to my earlier comment, so the Philippines did not turn on that power plant, right? because of a series of unfortunate events. You know, we had Three Mile Island pause the construction, the construction continued, and then we had Chernobyl and the Philippines had people power. So 40 years ago, the Philippines could have been generating clean energy. again, I think we would be in a different place, but Bygones, let bygones be bygones. Curio, I actually met the CEO Ed McGinnis because at the time I was in conversations with his best friend, a friend of his, around building alternative investments around client investment portfolios. For me, having spent my entire career, most of my career, focused on publicly listed securities.

It wasn’t making an impact, right? It’s I’ve been tracking stock prices, but I haven’t been able to make an impact. So when Ed talked about recycling, you know, we already had a lot of coverage in the news around reactors, small modular reactors.

And this is three years ago now. And we know how fast-paced the last two years have been with his current administration around small modular reactors and the DOE’s push for bringing these small modular reactors to commercialization. but at the time no one was talking about recycling, right? And having seen fuel from an oil refinery both in the Philippines and living in Saudi Arabia where I remember my dad in the eighties, like we would just drive up to the gasoline pump and not pay for anything. It was like pretty much Aramco gave it to us for free, right?

Fuel is what will break things. we’ve seen the demands, the data centers, the tech giants are investing in their own energy sources, right? But Curio was the only one that was focused on securing the fuel supply chain. And not just for the US, but with thoughtful.

consideration of the entire world.

Wes Ashworth (05:34)

hugely impactful there. And it’s always again just incredible to sort of see that and see those shifts, you know, and when you were exposed to it and just making those connections and then, you know, ultimately sort of like change direction in your careers to being able to focus on this. It’s really powerful.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (05:49)

And what I needed to relearn is or unlearn is this quick return, right?

you know, I guess the worst example is day trading with stocks, right? But then you have the kind of stay the course in you know, I was coming from selling investment funds or distributing investment funds, staying the course, to then what can we do to make these deep tech investments that actually solve foundational issues, energy, food, health, right? How can we construct an investment proposition around it so that we have a broader base of investors across ages, across nations that will support a company like Curio?

Venture, you know, typically has been a 10 to 15 year hold period. but the piece that our fund, the Synergos fund, has taken out of that is this one to five year investment period. So now you’re looking at exits of six to seven years versus these, you know, 10 to 15 years. And I’m not saying that companies need to exit at that point. Our objective is always to build durable companies. We want to build the next Westinghouse. We want to be the next GE, right? It just means that to attract, yes, today it’s still accredited investors, unfortunately, but we want to be able to attract a broader group of accredited investors that are not just looking for the fast exit, but it’s also not the furthest or longest exit. Again, we’re talking kind of this medium term, right? but We take that out, we take that investment period out of our Synergos fund strategy, and we have these companies that we want to own a majority of so that we can help them through their operational stages and commercialization stages.

Wes Ashworth (07:33)

Yeah, absolutely. It sets the stage perfectly in some of those areas we’re gonna dig into a little bit further just as we get into this. And but I think, you know, just hearing your journey, I think gives us the personal frame. And now I want to kind of move to why energy matters to you into something you’ve spent your entire career really understanding is how that capital decides which technologies ever get a real chance to scale. And so, you know, most people do assume like accredited investors already have access to private markets.

you think that’s only technically true, so I wanna hear about this and what does good access actually look like?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (08:04)

It means two things. one is immediate deployment. We spoke about that a little bit ago, about how we shouldn’t be holding on to our investors’ cash for too long. Again, one to five years, this is a traditional conventional venture, that’s not acceptable. Let’s deploy that cash. you know, under our Synergos continuum fund, we have high conviction deals lined up. the other piece is fair and transparent fees.

You know, the fund is able to attract investors from all over the world because typically if you look at an international investor accessing venture in the US, they’re gonna have to go through a bank, a private bank, that has a feeder fund. At the end of the day, they’re paying 10%. So even if our stated fees are two and twenty, they’re actually paying eight and twenty and don’t see the first dollar back until ten plus one plus one, until twelve years later.

So yes, they can write a check, but are they able to generate the impact with every cent, right? The other thing too is that you know the rise of secondaries. I’m not opposed to secondaries, but I think that too many investors actually cap their capability by entering too late, right?

Again, with good due diligence, and you know, this is where the power of AI is actually quite helpful now for newer investors to use so that they can ask the right questions and frame their own investment strategy and decisions, right?

The fund we invite our investors to be as participative, as active in knowing about the investments. You know, we’re not a black box. all of our investors have access to the same information we do outside of export controlled information or sensitive information, but we provide them quite the access to our investment companies, our portfolio companies.

Wes Ashworth (09:46)

Absolutely. I think that distinction is really important and really just understanding what does that good access really look like. I love that clarification and getting into that. so the other thing we sort of touched on there earlier was timing and I’m curious, so what does the private market just get wrong about timing? And then why do sophisticated investors so often sort of arrive like after the biggest value creation has already happened?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (10:07)

Long term alignment is important, but again, long term doesn’t mean that your investments is stuck for ten to fifteen years, right? We talk a lot about patient capital, but for us it’s Patience because it’s not passive, not at all, but we want real technical proof, right? Again, Curio just happens to be this great example. The technical proof is, you know, you gave your first dollar, your first investment, it went through the Department of Energy and the Four National Lives, testing each part of the technology or the chemistry. Then you top up, right? You can top up through the funds. and then capital efficiency, again, we want to deploy when it’s needed and we’re very, very much milestones-based, right? We it also means that if there is a risk that cannot be overcome.

That we can move on from that experience without substantial losses, right? Not that we are, because our deals for me is quite a magical set of portfolio companies. Not a very technical way of describing it, but we’re very happy with our current portfolio. Operational efficiency and discipline is not just something that investors need to look at, right? Are these companies well run? Are they growing with the right talent right Curio is a startup now commercializing right there’s a breadth of talent that needs to be that the company continues to build and nurture right but again these are large industries that are gonna be built around you know the nuclear ecosystem Curio’s core focus is really the recycling but imagine welders all of these trade skills needed in the future for some of these new countries that now have a 123 Agreement, that are now looking at building reactors in their countries, they don’t have that talent. You know, much less the engineers, right? So, you know, hopefully we have the support of universities to improve curricula. again, I think this is one area I think that I don’t see as much engagement between universities and the nuclear companies. Perhaps I’m wrong.

But I think this is an area where we can rather we must we must invest time and resources.

Wes Ashworth (12:17)

Absolutely. I like I like all of that you share, and especially kind of like that final piece around people and needing those people. And I agree. I think that’s something we must do. It’s gonna happen. And the problem is if you wait too long, it’s it is a tough, tough road to go down and try to find that talent magically out of nowhere. But you know, thinking about this sort of investment side, and it’s timing can really matter, you know, almost as much as picking the right company. and we got plenty of examples of that. But I’ll ask you sort of maybe the uncomfortable question is.

conventional venture capital is it structured structurally mismatched to deep tech infrastructure that may need the years of regulation, demonstration plants, and billions of dollars before maturity?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (12:56)

I don’t think it’s mismatched necessarily. I think that what has happened is a miseducation with investors. So you don’t always have aligned long-term investors in these funds. so I almost feel like asset allocation basics have to be part of the conversation, more part of the conversation. You also have a new generation that isn’t investing the same way we did, right? Or that our parents did. You know, we didn’t have these AI companies. We didn’t have these big tech companies. Well, we did some, but not all, right? So the just the momentum of these stocks as they come to the market is a different time and plus there’s everything else that distracts from investments in deep tech right you now have crypto you have folks investing outside of what we knew I mean what did I track as a as a Maryland employee right I track the SNP you know I don’t know that The younger gen investing generation does that. but I think where the Synergos fund can bridge that is really because we are getting the attention of you know that early generation that built the wealth, but that also want to bring their children, even their grandchildren, you know, to be part of the businesses they built. And you know, this happens to me with some of our LPs, right? I love talking to the main investor, to the children, to the grandchildren. Because at the Synergos Fund, we’re all about legacy building, right? it just so happens that the Synerges Fund is becoming sort of like a one-stop wealth management solution for our investors, but again, because it’s energy, right? It’s foundational. And nuclear, honestly, we can keep we will be talking a lot about this because it has a long way to go. We have countries with not enough energy. We have countries with rolling brownouts. And you know, I think back to 30 years ago, Wes, I grew up in the Philippines during high school when we would have literally blackouts.

And that is still a situation there, right?

Let’s think about Latin America, some of the countries, Central America. These are areas that will need alternatives to other, you know, renewable energy build outs that they have implemented in their countries.

Wes Ashworth (15:07)

Yeah, absolutely. you paint a picture perfectly in terms of just how great the need is. And I like that comparison as well, too, and just thinking about the newer generations and how they how they view investments and just the different factors that come into play that weren’t part of the equation before. And it’s just it really interesting to see all that come together and how it all evolves as well, too. So really good just insight there and just understanding that and think getting to that sort of core tension. I’ll go back to something you shared earlier.

around patient capital. and founders sort of hear this phrase all the time, like patient capital. what does patient capital actually have the right to demand in return? And you we did you started to touch on this sort of like in is it milestones, governance, discipline, or proof? Like what does that look like?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (15:47)

I mean all of the above, right? the I mean we’ve been talking about a complex industry in nuclear, but even in we one of our other companies is in waste to energy, right? you need to build in the most complex regulatory market in the US for this to be a solution, behind the meter solution.

to be used in other states, right? Much less go abroad, right? So in this situation, the plan is to build in California. but there is such a need for this.

But you’re gonna need to go through the actual build-out, you’re gonna need to go through regulatory requirements. We’re we haven’t even spent the time talking about supply chains. Building out these plants require materials that we don’t have enough of, right? steel is gonna be in large demand. Whatever we say, we’re gonna need a lot of it.

but also we’re gonna need to be smart with how we deploy this. I mean we talk a lot about the demand and what’s pulling all of it, but you know, we need patient capital to go to the right place.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (16:53)

We need it to go to building that infrastructure for the energy.

These data center build-outs, I you know, there is a need for processing data. it is just part of the world we live in, it’s evolution. but with that power, like things will fall apart and technology developments will slow down, electricity prices will keep going up. so for investors, we want to show them that.

Every dollar means something and we want to show them where that where every cent of that dollar goes and why at the onset we need to be aligned on The longevity of the investment. But we’ve solved this because also within our portfolio, we invest in companies that are already in the commercialization stage where we foresee an exit within two to three years. So we’re addressing a liquidity need by many investors so that they’re not stuck without distributions over a seven, 10-year period.

So in this space, we have two agricultural agri tech companies, Opti-Harvest and Agrology, that we love, love, love so much. And again, this is where I say venture is broken, because these agri tech, you know, we’ve we’re talking about electricity, but our food supply chain is also in as much peril, right? these are the technologies that help grow crops faster with less water. See, there’s another problem in the world that needs to be solved. It’s over too much water or too little water. but right now I think we have a formula within what we’ve trademarked as the continuum fund to again broaden this investment base. And hopefully over time they become you know, it becomes second skin to investors that okay, I really like this technology that’s gonna solve a health issue. But you know what? It’s gonna take that’s gonna be a seven to ten year investment.

But here at the Synergos fund, we have investments that could exit or be acquired that can deliver me a portion of my initial investment in the two to three year period. You know, and if you keep that cycle where we give the distributions, we don’t hold on to it. Hopefully that’s that virtuous cycle of investing, continually investing in deep tech, but also benefiting from, you know, call it late stage, because that has been the challenge.

had a lot of late stage marketing, you know. But even with the late stage, SpaceX was late stage for a long time. And

Wes Ashworth (19:11)

Long time. Yeah.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (19:13)

people capped their capability of making returns because they were so enamored by it. And by the way, I mean, I love that company. But if you look at I mean there are other opportunities that could have delivered you.

Better returns and faster returns, not the shiny not the shiny object, you know.

Wes Ashworth (19:30)

Yeah, absolutely. it’s all great context. And it’s amazing too. You’ve made so many different connections there. I love it’s one of the things like when you think about energy, how important it is, but how it connects to everything. You talked to supply chains and our food supply and just everything that is important to us in life, you know, at the center of it, a lot of times is that energy. And so just understanding kind of how the capital works with that and what makes sense and thinking about patient capital, you know, and as you said there, it’s like patient capital still has to be disciplined capital.

and I think you we started to touch on and sort of get to nuclear, and I’ll fully kind of transition there and get into it, but that capital question really becomes even more consequential, you know, once we move into nuclear, because the reactor itself is only one component of a much larger industrial system. and everybody, you know, talks about and is talking about sort of a nuclear renaissance. what maybe is everyone missing? Because they’re staring at the reactor instead of the ecosystem around it?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (20:21)

The value that is waste, right? The value that is in the waste. you know, I’m trying to make a conscious effort to call it kind of like energy reserves, right? So the spent nuclear fuel. Here in the US, we have almost a hundred thousand metric tons of it. But let’s think of it not as waste, but as valuable material. it’s not it’s not new to US that the typical cycle of using nuclear fuel is five years and then ninety-five percent of that goes to waste. The recycling process of Curio new cycle processes that waste and captures ninety-seven percent of that waste of that reserve that valuable material to capture a secure fuel source, right? So I think that’s what many folks are missing is the fuel supply chain.

Wes Ashworth (21:06)

Absolutely. And that was so enlightening when the conversation with Ed. And I’d encourage anybody to go back and listen to that as well, too. really is eye-opening and you’re like, we should not be calling this waste. We gotta think of a better term. But just how important all of that is, that is, you know, it’s not gonna be enough just to, you know, go everything new and new and new and keep building and all this sort of stuff. We’ve got to do all these other pieces of that, which, you know, recycling this waste is a is monster piece of that.

and to that point, like if America built, you know, every new reactor now that’s being discussed, but just failed to rebuild the domestic fuel cycle around them, like what breaks first in that scenario?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (21:40)

The fuel source. You know, again, it’s we need uranium. we cannot be a sovereign country when we’re importing most of that or some of that, right? spent nuclear fuel, at least with a Curio recycling new cycle process.

can power up other reactors. It’s not specific to our own reactor designs with our Hope reactor, for example.

But it’s expensive. This technology is not an easy technology, right? The founders of Curio, Rabbi Yechezkel Moskowitz along with Ed’s executive team, working with the DOE. Like we’re working with all of the experts possible, a strong board, a strong advisory board at Curio. All of this is needed to make this company Commercializable, right? And again, all these new countries with 123 agreements looking to build reactors to lower energy prices, the foundation is if you have the fuel. And why not why not look at closing the loop and making nuclear sustainable at the get-go? So this is such a great opportunity for these new nuclear electricity countries. You know, you now have Thailand, you have you know the Philippines. this is such an investment opportunity and this is really where infrastructure funds, banks can really make an impact.

Is to solve this recycling. And it’s not just recycling of spent nuclear fuel. You know, the gate 5 technology I mentioned, human waste or sludge has the same energy capability or power as coal. And not only can you create electricity from processing that, you’re actually killing all of the forever.

chemicals, the forever toxin. because it’s a thermal, a high thermal, I think it’s like 2000, 3000 degrees Fahrenheit, because it is a high temperature process, it destroys all of the plastics as well. So all of this to say that recycling is so critical and needs more attention and needs more investment.

because closing the loop on these processes or these needs, we need to treat our sludge. We have countries, you have other countries where only one percent of their waste is processed properly. Many of the wastewater treatment plants in the world need a replacement. Right?

But again, it’s this is why the Synergos Fund, we don’t have we’re a very concentrated fund, right? For a reason. And you know, maybe in five years, 10 years, 15 years, Wes, you and I will come together again and we’re still gonna be talking about the same companies and the companies that are going to be built around it.

New universities, maybe, or expanded university curricula. new communities.

Wes Ashworth (24:17)

Yeah, it’s gonna be amazing to see that and in you know in ten, fifteen, twenty years’ time, like all these ecosystems that are built around this problem. And you know, I know part of that too, like the DOE right now, they’re exploring, nuclear life cycle innovation campuses that could bring that sort of fuel fabrication, enrichment, recycling, reactors, manufacturing, even data centers together.

is that sort of like integrated campus model sort of the missing architecture for nuclear scale or does it concentrate too much complexity in one place? Like what are your thoughts around that?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (24:44)

You know, address the complexity, right? Because that’s that means you’re solving a very tough problem. I do like these kind of putting together you know recycling generation data centers in one area. one regulation, two logistics, right? You don’t have to transport waste from one you know from the east coast to the west coast. so I think it is it just makes sense. So this was a very smart RFP from the Department of Energy and from our administration generally. I think one or two or three of these would help our regions develop And find other you know, find other economic growth engines because the energy problem is has been addressed.

Wes Ashworth (25:25)

Yeah, I agree. I like these things coming together and it’s just interesting to see how people are trying to solve the problems and kind of bringing those pieces together. so we do we started a little bit with like this nuclear renaissance, and you know, it’s not the first time we’ve heard it. You know, it has happened before and didn’t quite take off, but I think this time is very different. from your perspective, like what has changed in the last few years that you feel like makes this nuclear build out Feel more durable and investable than previous waves of enthusiasm?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (25:51)

The technology has advanced in many ways, and really I think the education or awareness from I’d say the broader population is what is missing. certain countries have prohibitions that are really around you know, the more defense versus civilian use of nuclear. the process of recycling waste is already proliferation hardened. You know, this is not going to go to bad actors.

You know, there are guardrails, well established regulations all over the world by independent entities, individual countries, around the treatment of radioactive waste, right?

But the technology has come a long way. and it has needed the support, that the risking support that you know we’re very lucky we’re here in the US and we have the Department of Energy. All of that really helps, right? The loan programs office and it’s not just nuclear, really the support that other renewable energy sources has had, right? so that’s been quite a driver for the embracing of nuclear.

Wes Ashworth (26:50)

Yeah, absolutely. That technology changes, you know, obviously you’re seeing I think overall the durability question matters really because nuclear is it’s seen cycles of enthusiasm before. And then you start to see, you know, when investors the difference between a theme and a real market is seeing that ecosystem really actually start to move. And it’s fun to watch that happen. and I think, you know, it brings us directly to one of the forces changing the economics of power right now.

We touched on briefly, we’ve talked about before, but just extraordinary growth in electricity demand from AI and data centers and you know, reshoring and numerous other things as well. there’s a stat out there now that’s like US electricity demand is projected to rise more than 55% by 2050, which is just hard to even fathom. but you know, enormous near-term pressure from data centers, like what breaks if we keep adding digital infrastructure faster than we add power?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (27:36)

Everything breaks.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (27:38)

Right. The grid breaks, the grid cannot handle, I mean, as it is, right? Why is nuclear such a big focus? Because we know that it is the only one capable of delivering the quantity, the baseload power needed by industry. And it’s not just data centers, right? We need power and as humans we will find other ways to use this energy. nuclear is it’s existing technology, by the way. We just need to deploy it in ways that addresses all of the risks.

perhaps perception of risk that again the broader population has seen. You know, nuclear is not the only area of investment. We know that. You know, the grid needs to be and I’m not just talking about the US grid, right? Grids in many countries have not been developed in decades. This is a lot of infrastructure spending that needs to happen. And I think if you’re a smart investor and building for legacy, you know the grid and again it’s across many countries needs to be addressed.

Wes Ashworth (28:33)

I agree completely. and I love your first a response there. Everything, like everything breaks. how enormous a problem it is. But man, what a time to be alive and be a part of it and be a part of that solution. and you know, it’s gotta happen because it’s gonna take every single one of us. But I love that. and we’ve talked about this before, but Northern Virginia is kind of already living that future, right? When speed to power becomes the constraint, what does the market just suddenly value that maybe it didn’t value five years ago?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (28:58)

speed of development and speed of deployment. The ability to scale quickly and you know as fast as Northern Virginia has grown in its compute power, it needs to give back to the citizens the power that it’s taking from them, right?

And I say that without knowing the statistics per se. but maybe that’s also perception, right? So I think again, just energy needs have to go have to be used for people first, right? For our homes first, because without that and all of this is for improvement of our lives, right? Not just for the sake of which is I was gonna tell you, Wes that I’m focused on all of this because I want my daughter to not have to be worrying about electricity. I want her to respect the ways by which we source electricity, but I want her to be solving other issues. Again, health, agriculture, I don’t know, problems that her generation is going to have that to solve.

Again, foundational is the key thing. There’s been a lot of investments in SaaS and others. but I think if we could kind of balance out and build out the infrastructure, I think everyone will grow in economic wealth. I think we’ll generate new jobs. but we have a lot to solve when it comes to energy.

Wes Ashworth (30:11)

Yeah, agreed. Incredible moment. Like I said, that speed of power really is becoming just a competitive advantage in its own right. it’s interesting to kind of have to see how that changes what gets financed and where projects get built, and kind of seeing that play out real time. you know, another thing kind of too, you touched on briefly, I think earlier was just gate five. You know, and I think gate five is fascinating because that broader idea is to treat wastewater as both a liability and an energy resource. And we’re starting to see more along these lines, but What has to maybe be independently demonstrated before waste energy moves from, you know, clever technology to something just infrastructure investors can underwrite at scale?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (30:46)

Yeah, so getting to the pilot stage is really critical, right? And that’s your showcase that technology works. So you want to get to a readiness level six, seven, and then show the pilot. and keep the timing between the readiness, the pilot and the commercial plant very well managed in terms of build out, right?

And in the shortest possible time. But that requires a lot of kind of heavy evaluation of the build-out. So this is really where you need all of the experts around the table. And I have to say this is one thing that the Synergos Fund is very happy about and very skilled, is bringing the right and Rabbi, this is the visionary of the Synergos Fund and the founder of Curio. he knows the right people to bring around the table.

Of the day for all of these portfolio companies, for all of these impactful companies to come to fruition, you need a strong operator. You don’t just need an investor, you need an operating hand. I think in terms of Who the winners will be in any investment. It’s gonna be, particularly in infrastructure, it’ll be these masters of building things. And, you know, I see this day in, day out, you know, just with Curio, the way the every single person within the entity, they’re all builders, right? They’re all they all have a They all have their fingerprint on what Curio is building. So very, very excited. Curio, I think, is my SpaceX for my daughter. And we can’t wait to see to see the company start recycling the US spent nuclear fuel.

Wes Ashworth (32:16)

Yeah, absolutely. Exciting to just watch that evolve and see their development and kind of see that come to life. it, you know, just thinking about just what leaving the world a much better place as well too and what that’ll all mean. But I love to kind of just focus on this and looking at the investment side as well too. and I think, you know, really taking those examples, you know, like a gate five and sort of seeing that line.

Investors have to draw between possibility and proof and like what needs to happen and all that as well too. And I think as we’ve talked about several things now, like, you know, spend some time on nuclear and wastewater as well too, and kind of some of those other pieces. and I’d say, you know, even if all that technology works, all the capital arrives, somebody still has to manufacture it, construct it, operate it, regulate it, and maintain it. Yeah, exactly.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (32:57)

Get the permit get the permit.

Wes Ashworth (32:59)

The point you’re starting to make there too. and brings us to the human side of the build out, and I’ll spend some time here as we get closer.

And then, you know, also to the markets trying to build these systems from scratch, really. But you know, here’s this kind of hidden constraint is like, what if the capital shows up, the technology works, and we simply don’t have enough people to build it? You started to kind of get into this early on. I want to go back to it, but what happens if that’s the case?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (33:23)

I mean, difficult decisions have to be made, right? or I guess a better way to put it is you need to put that in your timeline, is developing that workforce. again, going back to nuclear, given the time for regulations to take effect and to be written and to take effect to really support recycling. I mean there is this time now to build that workforce. Perhaps another way is to upskill or reskill existing workforce, right? I wouldn’t know the specifics of what that means, but I think there is a big opportunity to Upskill, reskill, develop training programs specific to these new energy solutions behind the meter, nuclear, others. and I would like to say that, you know, solar, hydro, all of these other technologies also required a specific kind of focus on building, right?

Wes Ashworth (34:13)

and truthfully, like as we look at that, you know, it could be that the workforce could be the limiting factor in the entire build out. And think that’s a really healthy reminder to people. Maybe a wake up call. It’s like you need to start working on that today. I’ve said on the show before my favorites one of my favorite quotes is like, the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. Second best time is today.

Wes Ashworth (34:32)

start working on that problem today because it’s coming and it’s already here. So just a useful reminder. You know, capital doesn’t pour concrete or weld pipe. And, you know, we need those people that are that are doing the Doing the jobs and getting it done.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (34:43)

You know, my godson, is going to school one of my godsons is going to school in Urbana Champaign at a University of Chicago. Like, but we need more of more of these. and maybe that’s where AI can help also. Like, you know, if it’s not a particular role that requires hands-on like monitoring and whatnot. I just think There has to be like a working group, a global working group on educating for these new energy sources.

Wes Ashworth (35:11)

Yeah, I agree. And, you know, it’s probably needs to start even in schools early. You’ve seen other countries that do that and focus out of time and attention on it. And I would say, you know, we need a lot of welders and electricians and, you know, maintenance kind of folks and there are great careers ahead for those people with lots of job stability. And so I’d encourage anybody out there, you know, if you’re not a, you know, maybe a university type and you’re not gonna go get an engineering degree, you do like working with your hands. Like start learning some of these trades and getting into these programs connected to energy ’cause there’s gonna be just unlimited need for your talent and resources. So just an important reminder.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (35:47)

for the and for the younger folks, our children, right? Exposure and one of the cool, cool things, my daughter has lived Curio for you know, she’s seven, turning eight now. but she started hearing about Curio three years ago and she was learning about the small modular reactor. She literally you know, she got the barrel from a Tonka truck and she stood it up and she had an SMR. She had a Curio SMR on her Lego City.

Which is so interesting. And then the other like exposure. Let’s expose everyone to what is possible, right? And one of the recent trips we had to Curio is and we’re nearby but you know she didn’t have school and we had an important meeting so I brought her to Curio and how wonderful. You know they the engineers kind of told her they showed her the you know we have a photo in the office with Marie Curie in it and she knew about Marie Curie she had learned it in school and then Ed actually gave her a title. Ed gave her a title of Senior Vice President of Development

Wes Ashworth (36:46)

Hey, I love that. That’s so amazing.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (36:50)

And the other engineer showed her like what the 3D printer was doing. It was incredible. So I think exposure, again, we’re I love Curio, I love nuclear, but all of these other technologies, and in investment in general, I think exposure to the younger generation of what we’re working on and what we’re building so that they become a part of it, and a contributing part of it as they as they go into these industries or choose these industries.

Wes Ashworth (37:14)

Yeah, I love that so much and that point and exposure, right? And I’ve encouraged that on the show before of like get your kids involved, you know, start showing them the things and talking to them and bringing them into the office. And, you know, they have that memorable experience, right? Like you would be amazed how many professionals I talk to and you’re always curious, like, well, how’d you get into that? Like how’d you start that? and it’s it often starts with some childhood story, like, I was able to just get exposed and familiar and that passion kind of struck and so just how important that is in building the next generation of the talent that we’re gonna need and you know need those smart, bright people to do it. So bring your kids into it, expose them to it and that’s awesome.

Michelle Boquiren Urben (37:50)

let’s kind of elevate the bring your kid to work day.

Wes Ashworth (37:54)

give them all titles and all that. I love it. Give them models they can play with their Legos. It’s great.

Wes Ashworth (37:59)

I love that so much. so as we’ve talked through, you know, we’ve covered a bit on capital, fuel, infrastructure, demand, and now people, which I always love that part. I want to finish just real quickly just by pulling kind of all those pieces forward and thinking about what actually wins from here. So if we look out, you know, 10 years from now, what do you think will surprise people most about the companies that end up winning this energy build-out?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (38:21)

They’re gonna be surprised to see that it was it was the quiet companies that were just building and going through big challenges without complaining, but going through methodically addressing the chemistry. you know, they the template that I’ve seen at Curio is one of those things that should already be a business case. but you know, building a recycling facility.

For a country that’s had nuclear energy and hasn’t recycled, it’s like ten business cases to go through. so it takes gumption, it takes courage, it takes longevity. I’m trying to remember what Rabbi says. I’m not gonna say the right word, but he’s not afraid to.

go through the tough moments and to get through the tough moments. and I say quiet firms because we all know companies go public and they never even turn a profit, right? We wanna be a company and we will be a company that is tangible what it delivers to the world and is durable. And you know, my daughter shouldn’t have to think about energy, right? I want again, I want her to respect.

Where all of her resources come from. But again, there’s so many other challenges in life that can be addressed. And again, we don’t even know the other challenges that will come up in the future. yeah, master builders, courageous founders, this is what we need. we need frankly, for more collaboration and cooperation across party lines, across country lines, to be able to have better lives in the future, now and in the future.

Wes Ashworth (39:44)

Yeah, agreed. You spelled that out perfectly. And some of those just that’d be a great goal to accomplish, you know, and looking at that and that vision and what that would mean. But I agree. I especially around the you know, collaboration, you know, cross party lines, cross technologies, across all those different things that you know, we will win together as we go. there’s a quote that it that reminded me, I think I’ve said it before, but it’s I think it’s George Addair like everything you’ve ever wanted is on the other side of fear. just having that courage and like, yeah, it’s tough.

You know, it’s gonna be challenging, but I always say like, what a time to be alive. What a great problem to solve and how it’s the most important problem of our time for sure, but just an incredible moment. anything else, you know, we’ve talked about a lot. Anything else that you would want to leave the audience with, final words of wisdom, any other insight you want to share?

Michelle Boquiren Urben (40:26)

Just want to solve this energy problem for good. And so we can solve other challenges that face mankind.

Wes Ashworth (40:32)

I agree. it’s a such a such an important and critical one. I’m appreciative of folks like yourself that are doing the work and getting it done. And great way to just wrap up the conversation, thinking about that. But Michelle, this was absolutely fantastic. You know, I love how many pieces of the energy system this conversation connects and from capital to nuclear fuel to data centers workforce and global need for reliable power. thanks for joining me on Green Giants and sharing your perspective. And for everyone out there listening, thanks for being here. check the show notes. I would encourage you check out the episode with Ed as well too. I’ll link that. the conversation gave you a different way to think about what it’ll actually take to build the next energy system. Share it with somebody in your network and someone working on one of those pieces. And don’t forget to subscribe to the show, leave us a review and follow us on socials. With that, we’ll see you next time.