Green Giants – Episode 62

Shanelle Montana (01:49)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that there’s a thread that goes through my entire career, and that thread is rural and urban, and that oftentimes divide that we see that really shouldn’t be there. When I worked in DC, though I wasn’t technically on Capitol Hill, I did a lot for the federal government as a consultant, and I just kept seeing these themes come up of like rural, what rural communities want, rural communities here, rural communities there.

There wasn’t always a connection between what rural communities actually needed and what everyone in DC was talking about. And I just dove in headfirst into ethanol and then eventually into wind and solar and storage, really taking that focus of we need to focus on the communities that we’re working in, ensuring that projects are benefiting those communities as much as possible.

Wes Ashworth (02:20)

Yeah, so starting with that ethanol, then moving through wind, solar storage, how have those individual transitions shaped your philosophy as a clean energy developer? And I would say quite a bit versus just seeing maybe one angle of that, where you’ve had the benefit of seeing all those perspectives.

Shanelle Montana (02:38)

Right, I mean, we saw the impact of ethanol many years ago and what that did to the price of corn and how farmers were making their own business decisions. And then when we started to see the rise of wind, which came pretty hot and heavy, 20 years ago, that’s when we started seeing farmers transition some of what they were doing to maybe allow for additional wind turbines to allow that additional income to come in.

As a developer, one of the first things that I tell my team is that you need to understand the communities that you’re working in, and you need to understand what their goals for their farm or their land are. And so, regardless of where I worked, whether it was an IPP, as a consultant, or in ethanol, wind, I always tried to take that approach. We need to understand the communities we’re coming in so that we’re not strangers and we’re not the other. We’re just something that can add to what they’ve already built.

Wes Ashworth (03:44)

Yeah, I love that. We’ll dig more into that as we go. With Arevon starting as a top-tier operator, what were the biggest challenges in building that credible development arm, and how did you approach them?

Shanelle Montana (03:47)

You know, it’s so interesting. I’ve worked at a number of IPPs now, and one of the big differences here at Arevon is that we started as a really successful operating company. And if you think about the way that most IPPs were created, it’s, hey, we should develop these projects. And then a couple of years later, everyone was like, now we need to operate these projects that we built. And so, the sort of building blocks for the development team were there, and then they extended onto the operator.

And here at Arevon, it was a little bit backward. We started as a successful operator, and we said, wait, we should be developing these projects. We’ve learned so many lessons as an operator. Let’s now transition to a developer. So, a lot of what I have been doing over the last year, and Kevin Smith was doing before me, is really putting those building blocks in place for a development shop. But we have the amazing ability to do that while keeping in mind where we’re going as an operator and ensuring that our projects are successful, not just as a development shop, but as a 40-year operating life project. So it’s been really fun. We’ve been building up our team, building up our expertise, creating subject matter expert areas, and it’s been a really fun ride.

Wes Ashworth (05:10)

Yeah, I can only imagine so. Before we dig into a little bit of the technical work of project development and those sorts of things, I want to zoom out a little bit. So, your career spanned a time when clean energy went from patriotic to polarizing. And I want to talk about how politics have shaped the path and the perception of the industry. I think it’s very important. Again, when you first entered the energy world, renewables weren’t red or blue. They were about national security and rural opportunity.

What do you think we lost along the way, and what elements of that unifying message can still be reclaimed today?

Shanelle Montana (05:39)

It really is unfortunate. When I came into renewables, I was living in Minnesota for part of it. We had Tim Pawlenty, a Republican governor, pushing one of the first energy bills at the state level, the Next Generation Energy Act. For him, it was all about economic development, making sure real communities were lifted up. And then, when I was in D.C. as well, one of my first consulting roles was looking at military installations and how it was a national security initiative to ensure that we had reliable, clean power at all of our military installations. And that was under President Bush, the second President Bush. So, I think we need to take a step back sometimes in this hyper-partisan world that we’re in and say, what is our goal here? And why are we not aligning as both a Republican and Democratic party, and what is the ultimate goal? Because in the end, we actually think our goals are often similar. It’s just the way to get there that is different.

So that’s what I like to come back to. And whenever we’re talking about sort of this partisan divide that we have with renewables is I actually think the majority of Americans, red or blue, regardless, want the same thing with their energy. They want clean energy. They don’t like pollution. They want us to have a stable grid. And they want to keep costs low. And ultimately, a lot of that has to do with renewables. So, we all want the same thing.

Wes Ashworth (07:02)

Yeah. No, I agree with you 100%. it’s one of the things that I think I believe in most adamantly now is just that it should be depoliticized. I guess practically like, what do you think the industry can do, whether practically and publicly, to depoliticize clean energy and bring rural communities back into the center of the conversation?

Shanelle Montana (07:21)

Well, I think the first thing is it’s all about economics, right? It’s about kitchen table issues. For a farmer who’s reviewing a solar lease or a wind lease, he’s thinking about his farm, right? He’s sitting down at his kitchen table and thinking about the effect on his family and whether or not he can send his kids to college, and what his retirement’s going to look like. For communities that we work in, rural communities, it’s about what does that do to my tax base? What does that do to a potential housing development that I want to build in my community? What does that do for the schools?

So, one thing that we need to always think about when we’re working in, whether it’s a rural or urban community, is how this project is going to play out and how it is going to interact with all of these other constituents that local governments have. And is it going to benefit them? And how are we showing that? How are we talking about that? And not just talking about it from like a great grand philosophy. I oftentimes get a little frustrated when people say: but the clean energy revolution and we’re going to have this big clean energy change. Well, it’s like, yeah, that’s great, on a macro level, but we need to be talking about a micro level. We needed to be talking about people’s actual experience with these projects and ensuring that we’re bringing those communities along because, at the end of the day, it’s economics, and that’s what resonates with so many communities that we work in, which is it’s helping them economically to be part of these projects.

Wes Ashworth (08:49)

Yeah, absolutely. Again, something I could not agree more with. That’s so good and was so well said. Another thing you shared with me is that renewables must shake this elite label. What stories, language, or partnerships help reframe clean energy as a practical tool for everyday people, not just a political agenda?

Shanelle Montana (09:07)

Yeah, I mean, think of how many people you’ve heard say, well, I would love to have solar panels, but I can’t afford it. Or I would love to have clean energy, but I don’t know how I could do that. I’m on a limited budget, right? And we need to start realizing we’re not a niche anymore. We’re not just sort of a side project of a utility company. We are a tried-and-true part of the utility mix. And we will only be growing that part more and more as our industry and all the demand needs increase.

So, we need to start talking about ourselves like that. This isn’t, I remember somebody, I’ll never forget it. It was many years ago, but I walked into a local rural county, and they said, I was expecting you to be wearing Birkenstocks. I was like, no, this is a legitimate business, right? And we’re mainstream now. We’re not a niche anymore. And so, we need to start acting like that. And I think it’s really working towards that acceptance that we are like a lot of other energy sources, that is going to help us just be part of that regular conversation, and honestly, remove some of that political stigma.

Wes Ashworth (10:10)

Absolutely without a shadow of doubt and you’re seeing that happens you’re seeing it happen more and more right and I’d love that a lot more leaders are adopting that philosophy You’re seeing a lot more of those messages come out, which is really promising I would still say it’s not you know, the majority is still not there. We’re getting there, though. So, I love this thread. I love that message. Let me ask you, so when you’re in a room with skeptical local leaders or landowners and they expect you to walk in with Birkenstocks, often in deeply conservative areas, what messages for you actually work? What opens people’s minds or starts winning their trust?

Shanelle Montana (10:46)

I think the first thing is you need to understand what their concerns are based on. There are two types of concerns that I see coming, right? There’s the online sort of rampant false narrative about renewables, right? I hate to even say them out loud, their solar panels are polluting our water. Wind turbines are killing all of the cows next door. It’s those types of very far-fetched things that, at the end of the day, if somebody doesn’t know and isn’t getting the other education of what the facts are, of course, that’s what they’re going to see and believe.

So, are these people just lacking knowledge of our industry? In which case, that is easy to refute, right? We can easily bring them along, and we can have a conversation about education, and we can bring them to project sites, and we can introduce them to other landowners who may have had projects for a number of years.

Those are the conversations I adore. The second group though is much harder and that’s just ideologically opposed. They’re looking for excuses to be opposed to renewables. It’s likely on just a pure partisan thread. They likely are not open-minded enough to hear the education component. That is much harder and I think it’s unfortunately sort of a sign of the times in many areas, not just energy, that you just have this ideological divide at times and a lack of open-mindedness. But even in those circumstances, I don’t want to brush those people off. I want to first listen. I have to listen, because I have to try to really get down to what their concern is. And then next is to show them with their own eyes why their concern may not be as bad as they think, right? Why, actually, this could be a good thing for their community.

And I need to use people whom they trust to tell that message. So, if I come in as a developer, I could be anybody, right? I try really hard to establish trust, but that sometimes doesn’t work as well as someone they already trust. So that’s when I start leaning on other stakeholders in the community that they may respect, whether it’s school leaders or their local county commissioner, or another business person in their community. And it’s finding other people to help me tell my message because they already have that connection.

At Arevon, we have an amazing community relations department that works hand in hand with our developers to ensure that we’re not the only ones telling that message, that everyone else in that community is also telling our message for us in their own words, because that’s going to be much more trusted. So, it really boils down to those two groups, the ideologically opposed and the people who just haven’t been exposed to it yet. But we need to do both. We need to attack both of those.

Wes Ashworth (13:31)

Yeah, without a doubt. You framed that up really nicely and I would agree, I mean, thinking about those two groups, I would say for the ones that are just a bit misinformed, it’s amazing when you’re able to just shed some light and share some facts and then you see kind of the light bulbs go off and like you can win those people over. Like you said, it’s maybe a little easier on that side. And then, of course, it was much harder there.

And I would encourage anybody out there, regardless of what you think, believe, or which way you vote, to be curious, ask questions, research things, and look into it. A belief is not a true belief unless you’ve found it out for yourself and you’ve questioned it. And you question it, and you kind of go, well, maybe I’m open to it. I could be wrong. And then if you come away at the other end of it and you’re like, well, I don’t know, I still feel the same way, okay, we can respect that. But be curious first, I think, regardless of what side you sit on.

Yeah, with that, bridging political divides is one thing. Building trust on the ground, as we started to touch on there, that’s another. So, I want to move from more of that national narrative to what it means to show up locally and lead with respect, which I know Arevon really leads the way. And so, what does it look like to truly understand and respect the communities where we build clean energy projects? You started to touch on that a little bit, but I just want to expand on that a bit.

Shanelle Montana (14:40)

Yeah. I think for a long time, developers were falling into this trap of just delivering information, which is good, right? Communicating. But communication goes both ways. And that’s something that I think we need to ensure all developers, not just Arevon, but all developers, are doing. We also need to receive information from the communities that we’re working in. I’ll give you an example. I had a project that was very controversial in the Midwest, and one of the things that I just kept hearing was aesthetics, right? They didn’t like the idea of the project being seen. And they asked over and over again, you’re like, what can we do about it? And we really, as a team, had to sit back and say, well, what can we do about it? And we ended up putting very large agricultural buffers around the project so that the majority of the year, all you saw was corn, which is what they wanted to see. Ended up spending a fair amount of the budget on trees and making sure that we were screening in areas that otherwise would be seen. And here and there, we changed that project, but we would never have been successful in that project, but for the fact that we listened to the community and took that back as a team and said, okay, what can we do about this? And you can’t do everything, right? Like you still have to live within your means of a project. The project has to be economic. That’s one of the great things about solar, and it is the fact that it is so economical. But I do think there can be a tendency for developers to just relay information. But that listening and that feedback loop, and showing that you’re being responsive, is vitally important in order to connect with communities and be a good neighbor.

Wes Ashworth (16:21)

Yeah, absolutely. And something else you touched on, too, is like finding and building those local champions. Somebody that’s in the community that can share the message, they can talk and talk to the people that they know and respect, and they’re part of it, versus coming in from the outside. And I think that’s such a crucial strategy and so important. Can you share a specific example or story of when local context may have reshaped a project? You shared a little with the corn example there. I’m sure there are plenty of others or change, just dramatically change your team’s approach entirely.

Shanelle Montana (16:53)

Well, I’ll give you a really simple one, actually. We had a landowner in Louisiana. Actually, this was not in an Arevon project. It was a past project of mine. And she was excited about the opportunity. She had lived on her farm for, gosh, I don’t know, 40-some years. She and her husband built it up, built up the house, built up this beautiful barn that they had. And again, she was like, I want this, but I’m nervous about it. And I said, well, what do you love?

Like, what do you love about your farm? She said, I love going on walks. I love the flowers. And I love our trees. And I said, great. Where do you walk? And she drew it out on a map for me around this pond. And I said, Awesome. So, then I went back with our engineering team. And I said, here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to build a walking path around this pond. We’re going to put lilac bushes all around it. And we didn’t screen the entire thing. But I said, here you go. You can have your walking path, it’ll be maintained, so you have to maintain it anyway, and you’ll be able to have more lilac bushes, because that’s really what you loved about that property. And she said, oh, that’s great. Did it impact our production? Slightly, we had to make some accommodations, but she signed up. She was our biggest advocate. For three years, as we’re going through permitting and meeting with the county, and construction can get messy, you know, she was our biggest advocate. She said they listened to what I said, and they reflected on that.

And I think those are the type, it seems like an afterthought sometimes, but those are the types of things that can make or break that community relationship and give you those really strong advocates for a project.

Wes Ashworth (18:30)

Yeah, that’s an incredible story. it’s in one way, it’s like so simple, right? But it’s the basics of just listening, meeting them where they are, like hearing what’s really important to them and just hearing those objections, like really feeling that, and kind of like going through it with them and putting yourself in their shoes. Sometimes it’s a slight, maybe a slight inconvenience, but like an adjustment, and you end up making it work and having great success. But that’s the difference a lot of times. It’s those little things.

Shanelle Montana (18:32)

Absolutely.

Wes Ashworth (18:58)

Thinking about that further, what are some of the things like you’re giving advice to your teams, you’re training your teams, and when it comes to building authentic long-term trust with landowners, local officials, what’s the playbook? Like, what are you telling them to do?

Shanelle Montana (19:12)

Well, it’s early and often, right? And it’s on the ground. Like, nothing does anything better than being on the ground in person. You know, I hear it in campaign, like political campaigns sometimes, people say, it’s the kitchen table issues. And I always go back to that because you need to be able to sit at the kitchen table or the local township meeting or whatever it is, and just be a part of the conversation.

You look less intimidating if you’re there in person. You build that trust better if you’re there in person. And in today’s Zoom world, which I love in so many ways, Teams and Zoom and everything, there’s still an element of in-person that just means the world, I think, to local communities. And that’s something that I always preach to my teams. And it’s being honest. There are just some things we can’t do. There are requests we get, and I just say that’s going to be too much for the project to handle. We can’t do that. And we just need to go back and be really honest about why something sometimes doesn’t work. But I think it’s that back and forth and recognizing the other community’s desires that builds the trust.

Wes Ashworth (20:15)

Yeah, it’s so good. I love what you said, too, just the early and often, right? Boots on the ground, being there, being a part of the community, not just showing up at the end or what, like when it’s convenient, I guess, if you will. And then I agree, like nothing replaces that, that in-person connection. And the fact that you’re willing to be there and physically be there and they see you and they’re like, okay, just more open to listen and come on board. So, love those messages. So even the most community-driven projects still run on contracts, costs, and construction. I want to dig a little bit into the inner mechanics. In the triangle, you’ve called the development trifecta, which I love. So, you’ve described that interplay between EPC contracts, PPAs, and development, I said, a trifecta. Why is that triangle more complex and fragile today than ever?

Shanelle Montana (20:44)

Yeah. And when I say the trifecta, I sometimes have to caveat it because it is so hard. So, it’s not to say that you’re doing poorly if you don’t get it. Majority of projects don’t. But I do think it’s important to attempt. If you think of the industry just in the last year, just think January to now, looking at PPA prices, looking at interconnection costs, supply chain issues, long lead items that need to get delivered, and tariffs.

It’s an absolute whirlwind. And so, our team has really had to stop and think, well, how do we make sure that our PPA isn’t set here, and our EPC is set here, and our development is set over here with the interconnection? Like we have to start aligning these, and the more that we can get EPC interconnection or development complete, really, and a PPA around the same timeline, the more de-risked that project is going to be and the more accurate we’re going to be in our estimates, up or down.

The last thing we want to do is be in a contract that we can’t fulfill, but we are also dealing with all these other variables that are going, you know, somewhat haywire this year on costs. And so that’s really the trifecta. It’s trying to ensure that we’re pricing appropriately, that our EPC is coming in appropriately, and that we’re getting DevComplete all around that same time. And it is really tricky. So, I don’t want anyone to think that they’re doing it poorly if they’re not getting it. It’s just, it’s more of a goal to work towards than it is an absolute.

Wes Ashworth (22:30)

Yeah, yeah, no, that’s important, I think, in framing it up the right way. And it makes sense, as you say, that. Thinking about obviously, you mentioned since January to now, it’s been a wild ride, continues to be, that’s the industry though, right? But how do these tariffs, global supply constraints, and evolving cost structures factor into these long-term decisions? And talk to us a little bit about the thought process of what happens internally, where you are.

Shanelle Montana (22:33)

Yeah, I mean, it’s a great question because I think it’s been a struggle for any developer right now, any IPP. We’ve really been fortunate to be able to say, it’s not that we’re pushing, not pushing projects, we are, but we’re trying to de-risk our pipeline as much as we can, as prices are going through that fluctuation. We’ve taken a step back on some projects and said, let’s finish development.

Let’s de-risk completely, and then let’s start marketing a little bit later. Again, it’s trying to get a little bit closer to that trifecta. And we’re fortunate enough that we can do that. We can sort of not necessarily have to push a project just to meet a year-long goal, and instead really look at what’s the least risky way for us to move this project in this turbulent time. So that’s something we definitely have been doing. It’s unfortunate because like every developer, I love to see those projects start construction, but I think it has been really beneficial for us to just slowdown in some ways and say, we’re going to try to align and see what happens and not just jump into something that could go belly up if a new tariff comes down. So, I think that’s part of it. Our procurement team, I don’t know how they still have their hair, but they do, and they’re doing an amazing job trying to maintain optionality.

Optionality is the name of the game right now. Whether it’s panels or the way you’re qualifying for an energy community or whatever it is, having options is the best thing a project can have right now. So, maintaining that optionality, and it comes down to community relations and landowner relations too, because if there are projects that are gonna slip, again, that communication, keeping that community engaged, keeping that permitting entity engaged, you might need to go get a permit amended for a longer period of time, right? So, you need to keep that engagement all throughout those communities as well. You can’t forget that.

Wes Ashworth (24:46)

Yeah, absolutely good stuff in there, and the procurement teams, the unsung heroes sometimes, and they are the ones behind the scenes, like just making stuff happen. Those are some hardworking people. Any other kind of practical or internal shifts that Arevon has made to better align with EPC PPA development timelines amidst today’s market volatility, which in de-risking, just curious, sort of like any sort of practical things that have been happening.

Shanelle Montana (24:56)

Yeah, we’ve actually started doing a lot of our design Geotech engineering, early engineering, much earlier than I traditionally do. But we’ve done it very purposefully because we’re finding that so many local entities want more certainty now than they did. You’re going through local permitting, and communities are saying, I don’t want a 10 % design. I want a 30 or 60 % design in order to get this permit. Which means we need to do a lot of these studies earlier and have that certainty. So, we’ve actually moved the de-risking of our projects to the left. It’s an additional expense, right? Like we can’t forget that that means that earlier on, you’re spending a little bit more on studies, but I think it’s well worth it to do that and to de-risk early. Sometimes, say, fail early. And if you don’t fail, then great, you have this great runway of a de-risked project.

So, we are making some changes that way. It gives us a greater ability to plan our procurement if we have more certainty about our project pipeline. But all of that means we need to do some of those studies that we would probably do a year before or a year and a half before construction. We’re now doing those three years before construction. So, we are making some changes there.

Wes Ashworth (26:24)

Yeah, absolutely. And beyond just timelines and budgets, one of the biggest constraints, as we know, is interconnection. It’s no longer just a clean energy problem. Talk about where grid reform meets coalition building, and kind of getting into that. So, interconnection delays have long been a hurdle for renewables, but now natural gas developers, data centers are hitting the same wall. Does this convergence of pressure open the door for a more unified push for reform? Or what are you seeing from your perspective?

Shanelle Montana (26:41)

So, it’s really, like the wonk in me has to giggle a little bit because with this rise of data centers, we spend a lot of our time doing education to data center entities, and not as much maybe now as a year ago when data centers were first really starting to boom and everyone’s talking about it. And so, I think the learning curve has come through, but I think age of our grid and some of the inefficiencies of our grid are getting a lot of pressure right now and they’re becoming this mainstream conversation because of what you said, have natural gas wanting to come online sooner, data centers wanting to plug in, and we have communities that are experiencing blackouts and brownouts. And I live in New Orleans, Louisiana. We actually just had one a couple of weeks ago on one of the first hot days of summer, and we thought it was not even that hot right now, but the grid was constrained, and MISO shut down part of the grid.

It was a little bit of a wake-up call, I think, for a lot of people in that area, particularly. All of these things, I think, it is helpful for us because we’re not the only ones feeling the pain, and we have these allies to be there to say, no, we want grid reform. We want additional capacity. you know, communities need that.

So, I think that’s really good. But my fear is that it’ll become an unfair playing field. And if I think of some of the potential programs that I’ve seen in MISO, PJM ERAS being one of them, you where you sort of have this fast track to the grid, that it gives me a little bit of skepticism because at the end of the day, we should all be playing off of the same playbook, whether we’re natural gas or wind or solar, whomever.

So, I want to make sure that we stay agnostic as far as what the generation source is and instead just focus on how we, as an ISO or as a country, actually get the number of megawatts on the grid that we need. But I get a little worried sometimes that you might have particular ISOs that are saying, well, how do we just get the natural gas through, for example? And that makes me a little hesitant.

Wes Ashworth (28:52)

Yeah, no, understandable. From your perspective, I guess, then what would it take to turn that shared frustration into true cross-sector collaboration? Because you do see the power in that, right? I mean, if we could all get behind that support, and you’ve got multiple sectors kind of coming in and helping to be a voice and improve it and make those changes equally across the board, not just for one. Are there practical ways for renewables, gas, and data infrastructure players could team up on policy or key reform?

Shanelle Montana (29:04)

I do think you’re seeing it happen a little bit in some of the ISO reforms, MISO, PJM, CalISO, where everyone’s kind of hammering for the same thing. They want speed in the queue; they want certainty on costs. I think that’s helpful. I do think a lot of industries are converging around the rise of data centers, and when you have a large sort of super or hyperscale, who’s saying I’m going to use whatever the amount is, megawatts, it causes this really natural conversation between the utility and generation sources and the user. And so, I do think there’s sort of a coalescing around this rise of data centers that’s happening. I don’t think it’s happening enough. I’ll just be really honest. I think it needs to happen more. I don’t know exactly who that avenue should be or who the facilitator should be between all the industries, but we need one. I would love to see one come up.

I think SEIA sees this, think ACP sees this, but I don’t know yet, just being really candid, who that sort of grand facilitator is going to be that’s going to bring these issues to the forefront. So, I’d love to see it, though, soon.

Wes Ashworth (30:26)

The opportunities there, right? And so, I think the more awareness comes to that, hopefully, the right individuals will step up as well and start helping with that. And obviously, you voice that concern with it could disproportionately benefit natural gas. I think you’ve seen some of that. Anything else you think that would help us either get to a truly equitable solution or just another viable path to getting there?

Shanelle Montana (30:28)

So, I came into Wind when in the Midwest we were looking at multivariable lines, these MVP lines. And that worked. I think it was slog, yes. But it gave at least an idea to developers, to utility companies, to users of where additional capacity was going to go.

It was really led by the governor’s associations. It was led by industry groups saying, We need this. I don’t want to overlook, just, I mean, it’s a simplistic idea, right? But like, don’t want to overlook that because it has worked in the past when it can happen fast enough. So, whether it’s multivariable lines that are coming in, I think we need more than just the developers clamoring and more than just data centers clamoring for this.

If I was the state governor, for example, this is something I would key in on. And that’s how we got a lot of those original MVP lines in the Midwest and North MISO is we had governors’ associations sort of raising the red flag and saying, we need this. And that’s what we need more of. It’s just, it can’t just be this energy issue. It needs to be a community issue and a state issue. And I think that’ll give it the prevalence that the actual issue requires.

Wes Ashworth (32:05)

And in my mind, the higher the pain goes, the more likely that is to happen. It’s sad that it’s that way, but that’s just how it is. More blackouts start happening. People who have never experienced one all of a sudden experience one that changes the conversation, where people are like, okay, now I’m ready to listen, this affected me.

I think we’re seeing that we’re seeing more blackouts, seeing more brownouts, as you said, and those things hitting closer to home, where people are going to start paying attention more and more. So, beyond kind of all of that, there’s this deeper issue, sort of public understanding from electricity myths to subsidy skepticism, the way we talk about energy really shapes what’s possible and I want to go there.

o, what’s one of the most common misunderstandings people have about how the grid actually works to begin with?

Shanelle Montana (32:54)

Well, I mean, we get this question all the time with communities, right? And someone will say, where is the power from your solar project going? Who’s your PPA with? And they’ll know enough to say, oh, you have a power purchase agreement. Who’s that with? if we say, just using as an example, Meta. They’ll say, why does Meta get all of your energy? And I have to really talk about, well, this is how the grid works, or why does this utility get all of your energy? Well, the grid really puts electrons where they’re needed. And I often have to explain the grid like we do a plumbing system or a water system. You have your water tower, the generator, and then the water comes out of that water tower, and it doesn’t care if it’s going to the Smith’s house or the Montana’s house or whoever’s home, it’s just going where it’s needed. It’s going to whoever turns that faucet on. And then, in the electrical world, there’s a sort of behind-the-scenes market that does the financial transaction. And that’s how I like to talk about it in communities, because I think there’s this idea that a solar project is coming to my community, but all of that power is only going to be used for Apple or Meta or Google or whoever it is. And it’s like, not exactly.

That solar project is adding stability to your grid, too, as a homeowner or a business owner in that community. And so, I like the sort of plumbing example because it’s something people can resonate with and kind of think about. But it’s still a challenge. It’s a challenge talking about the grid with legislators. It’s a challenge talking to regulators and the community because it is complex. I mean, we live, breathe, and eat this stuff, and we’re still learning every day. So, we can’t assume that anyone should have the amount of knowledge about a grid that we do for any reason. Why would they?

But to your point, I think the increase in blackouts and brownouts is causing people to start to ask these questions, and they’re really putting an emphasis on people’s understanding of how their utility works, how much electricity they’re using as the price goes up, and paying more attention to that. So, the learning is starting to happen. I’m noticing it more and more, but it’s still a very complicated process. And it’s always a good reminder that we need to slow down and take away the acronyms and just really talk about what the grid is and why it’s there.

Wes Ashworth (35:17)

Yeah, that’s so good. I love that just the simple analogy is something that just anybody can get their head around. It’s relatable, and I think that’s so important. I think communication is again an underrated success tool in making this happen. And I think maybe one of the very, very top ones that we communicate effectively. We tell these stories right. We make these analogies like some of the best things on the show. And you’ve already given several just these really simple analogies where somebody, again, even sometimes people in the industry, as you said, we’re learning every day. Like I learn new stuff every single day that I talk to people, and I’m connected to it. Like this is living, breathing this every day, but the normal person out there that’s not connected to the industry and not tied to it, to be able to explain it to them where it makes sense, and then get their head around it. I think that’s so, so critical.

Some other things. So, beyond NIMBYism to subsidy myths, what’s another misconception you wish more people understood better, and how do you respond?

Shanelle Montana (36:17)

One that we find a lot in the south, in the southern states that we work in, is the idea that we’ll just walk away from a project, right? Well, if your project doesn’t work or if a storm hits it, you’re just going to walk away and leave it here.

I like to really talk through that because that’s a really personal thing for some of those southern communities. If you look at how many oil wells were started and drilled, and then somebody walked away without really realizing the effect that might have on a community, the pollution it might cause, et cetera. I think we need to really look at a community’s history and understand that when we’re answering that question. But we have very strict decommissioning.

And one thing I always like to say is we’re investing hundreds of millions of dollars in equipment. There’s no way I would still have a job if I just said, walk away from it. And I try to bring it down to that just really easy level of, if you invested in a home, you didn’t like one part of your home. You’re not walking away from your home. You end up refurbishing your home or remodeling your home. And again, it’s just that really easy analysis.

And there are rules, too. I mean, I think decommissioning rules exist in the majority of states or local entities now. And so, we walk through, you know, there’s no way that we’re going to build this, and two years later, we just walk away from it and abandon it. But I think that’s something we get a lot because of the history of how different energy sources have worked in communities and neighborhoods and for families. So that’s one that I just feel like we have a really good message for, but we need to be sensitive because people got burned in the past.

Wes Ashworth (37:49)

Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, I grew up in a small town, and there was one major employer that really fueled the town. The economic viability of that town depended on that one large employer. Now, the next thing you know, that employer leaves the area, and it is terrifying, like seeing what it’ll do to a community. And so they’ve experienced some things like that, to where you’re right. Maybe they’re just a bit more sensitive to, I hear what you’re saying, but they’re thinking about that.

Some past experience may not be that particular one, but something else. So, think that’s really critical. I like this topic. What are some other kinds of common things you hear? I love to just hear what it is and then how you respond to it.

Shanelle Montana (38:17)

Well, I would say another one is, you know, the subsidy issue. We get it no matter what. And I think it’s always important for us to be able to address that head-on. And we need to be able to address it both for our own industry and as it relates to other industries. I mean, as many of us know, though, yes, we have the IRA, we have different incentives. So does natural gas.

So, does fossil fuels generally, so does nuclear, particularly, right? There are incentive programs that have been put in place throughout history to encourage our country to go in one direction or another. And so, I think it’s important to always put it in that frame. I also think it is good to show, like I sometimes show a stack of what it means, like what the incentive actually is, like we’re investing this much, or this is the economic development that we’re creating, and then this is the potential tax credit that we’re receiving.

And what is a tax credit? Because I think people often think of a tax credit as just a check that we’re getting, a grant that we lost. And so, I really drive down to it, like, what is a tax credit? It’s because we are investing this much that we are able to get this tax credit, and this is how it’s used.

And then giving other examples of how natural gas has its tax credit, which they have. And there might not be something that has to get renewed every single year, but it’s still a tax incentive. And so, how does that play within their industry? And I think we can relate it to people or to things that are very familiar to people farming incentives and subsidies.

When we look at just a mortgage, many of us who have a mortgage are able to get a tax credit on our mortgage. And so, it’s like relating that and saying, do you think you’re getting a subsidy if you’re getting a mortgage credit? You probably don’t, but again, it’s just something that we’ve normalized. And this is a way that we’ve been able to spur an entire industry in our country, including manufacturing jobs and jobs in rural communities. A really good job that we want. And so yes, there was the IRA, but this is the effect of it. This is what it built and created. And that’s the direction I like to go with it. We can’t deny it. We can’t avoid it. We have to be able to answer that question very directly.

Wes Ashworth (40:44)

Yeah, that’s just really good. And a lot of times people make these arguments that they take out this little detail out of context in a vacuum and you’re like, but yeah, to your point, you look at all these other historical examples, all these other industries, it’s not just unique to us, this isn’t the first time, this has happened in other industries and been very successful. So yeah, I think that context is really important, so I love that. Before we wrap, I want to shift from an industry-wide view to a more personal one.

Talk about what’s moved you most in this work and what still gives you hope. So, tell me about it, like what’s the most rewarding project of your career so far, and why?

Shanelle Montana (41:21)

Well, I always immediately go to the project that I, the first project that I saw, sort of start to finish was a Minnesota wind project many years ago. And we’ve had tons of successes since then, but I will never forget this because it really like just got ingrained in me. We built the project, and I went back after construction and met with the community to say like, How are things going? Like, are you enjoying having the project? Is it good?

And I had an old sort of Griswold County Commissioner come up to me who I’d worked with, who was a skeptic at first, by the way. And he grabbed my hand and he shook it and he said, the population of our city has declined by 20 to 30 % every year for the last 20 years. And he said, every time I ask young people why they’re leaving, they say it’s because we don’t have broadband, we don’t have fiber, and so we can’t do any of these jobs that we wanna do in this town unless we’re owning a farm. And he said, I took that first tax check that I received from the project, and we were able to put fiber throughout our entire town. And he said, now those people don’t have an excuse to leave, and I expect them to stay. And he had tears in his eyes, and I had tears in my eyes. And I said, that is amazing. And he said, we never would have been able to afford that. And that impact would never have been there but for your project. And so, he was very grateful.

I’ll never forget him because it showed me again, if these projects are done right, if the way that we pay our taxes is done right, if the way that we are part of the community is done right, we can have an enormous impact on some of these rural towns that oftentimes, in my opinion, are very overlooked. And so that was just one example that I will honestly never forget in my entire life. And that was almost 20 years ago at this point.

But I think we’re seeing little stories like that now and every day in my career. We’re seeing those things happen and the impact that we can have in these communities because these are some communities that just didn’t get a lot of love in the past. They didn’t get the economic opportunity. But the beautiful thing about Clean Energy is that’s exactly where these projects are doing amazing work. So, I’m really proud to be part of this industry and to know that we are contributing to those areas that, oftentimes, I think are overlooked.

Wes Ashworth (43:37)

Yeah, hearing stories like that is absolutely incredible. And you can understand why you’ve held onto that closely for 20 years. And it’s been a huge part of your why. It’s like, that’s what sometimes people don’t think about. It’s like all those other benefits, right? And in that community and how that it, just, it’s just a positive benefit when done right and correctly, as you said, like it really is life changing for a lot of people. And it’s incredible, like incredibly cool to be a part of that industry, that is that way. shifting to just another.

Shifting to just a couple more quick questions as we get closer to time. So, what’s one thing you wish every energy maker understood?

Shanelle Montana (44:10)

The first one is that we’re here not just because of an incentive. We’re here because we are part of the actual energy mix in this country, and we’re going to be here for the future. I think again, there’s still sort of this falsity amongst certain communities and legislators, particularly that we only get wind because of a subsidy. We only get solar because of a subsidy. And that’s just not true. I mean, we’re part of the energy mix and will be going forward. And I think it’s really important for all legislators to realize that it’s not a niche anymore.

Wes Ashworth (44:42)

Yeah, absolutely. Final question, I’ll make it a little bit broad and open. Anything that we didn’t cover, advice, final words, just thinking about the future, where things are headed, anything else you want to share, the floor is yours.

Shanelle Montana (44:58)

Well, a lot of people, particularly people like me who’ve been in the industry for so long, talk about the solar coaster, which also pertained to wind, you know, when we had PTC, ITC on and off, and renewals. And it was very stressful for a number of shops trying to navigate through that, but we always navigated through it. And that’s what I’ve been really trying to tell our staff is don’t get to overly excited about this particular tariff that came in because we know the next day it might change, and don’t get too worked up about an IRA change because the industry will adjust. It always has. And I think there’s, it’s not that we shouldn’t be politically involved or tell our story or contact our legislators, but we need to, at the end of the day, remember that we have a job to do and we’re going to continue doing that no matter what.

We ride the solar coaster up and we ride the solar coaster down, and it, unfortunately, can create some stress, but we need to just remember to do our day jobs, put our head down, get our work done, do the best that we can for our industry and for our projects and our communities. And then we’ll make it out the other side, and we’ll see what happens. so, let’s continue to push and educate as many people about our industry, but don’t get too down in the dumps just because one thing happens, and we know we’re going to make a comeback regardless.

Wes Ashworth (46:14)

Yeah, that’s so good. Can’t think of a better way to just wrap that up and put a bow on it. Great, words of wisdom there and encouragement. So big thanks to you, Shanelle, for joining us and for the clarity, depth, and candor you brought to the conversation. Your work reminds us that progress in clean energy isn’t just about scale. It’s about listening, adopting, and building trust where it matters most.

To our listeners, if you got out of this episode, which I’m sure you did, send it to someone who’d appreciate it, share it with a colleague, drop it in a group chat, post it on LinkedIn, whatever helps keeps the ideas moving forward. And make sure you subscribe to Green Giants so you don’t miss what’s next. And if you’re enjoying the show, leave us a review. It helps more people discover these stories and the people behind them. With that, thanks for listening, and we will see you soon.