Green Giants – Episode 63

Wes Ashworth (03:13)

Yeah, that’s incredible. And I know, we’ve had a previous conversation where you shared with me that no amount of money could convince you to work for an oil and gas company. And you’re really passionate about the renewable space, which I love. Where does that level of conviction come from?

Nasreddine Guerfala (03:27)

Yeah, I guess like each of us has to at least form their own personal conviction at some point in their professional career. And I was fortunate enough to be able to say no to some of these offers from oil and gas companies. I guess that conviction comes from like my passion for the fight for climate, like energy transition and climate change.

And nothing against those companies and how they were shaping the world in many decades in the past, but I think the time has come for us as a society to look ahead and look beyond just the money value and all the fossil fuels that are not, they cannot regenerate and basically focus on more renewables and things that have great environmental attributes. Again, I’m fortunate enough that I can have the option of choosing. And yeah, it’s really coming from a personal conviction.

Wes Ashworth (04:28)

Yeah, no, it’s awesome. And as we’ve already touched on a little bit, you’ve moved across countries, sectors, and disciplines. What has that global multi-sector journey, I guess, taught you that shapes your work today?

Nasreddine Guerfala (04:41)

Yeah, that’s a great question. Yeah, again, I was lucky to work in a few countries. So, I started my journey in Tunisia. And that really taught me about the value of resourcefulness, being able to accomplish big goals without necessarily all the big means that you need, or with the available tools. So that was really helpful in terms of working for startups and trying to accomplish the same goals, bigger goals, with small resources. I also had the pleasure of working in Switzerland for an internship that really shaped my professional career early on, and I learned a lot about the value of discipline, hard work, and showing up early, like Swiss professionals really love to work, and they actually embrace it, and so on. like that really shaped my discipline for the years ahead. And I guess working in Canada, and US, and North America, I really learned about how valuable technology can be, and like how you can scale up really quickly. And yeah, how policy can also really shape the whole future of a sector.

So yeah, that’s about countries. Also was fortunate to work between smaller companies, software companies, whether it’s consulting or big or small utilities, regulated or unregulated. And yeah, like, guess like the, that helped me kind of form, had a new lens of vision for each team I’ve been to. And like, they have a lot more common, common elements. Like it’s always about the team, about the human capital that you have in a company, and the culture that you can create that kind of propels that company ahead.

Wes Ashworth (06:16)

Yeah, without a doubt. And beyond just even like you’ve seen a lot of different countries, different environments, different sizes of companies as well, you mentioned, but you also held different leadership roles in different functional areas like engineering, legal, and business development. I guess what’s the thread that connects them all? Was that an intentional journey, or tell me, tell me a bit about that.

Nasreddine Guerfala (06:34)

Yeah, maybe a little bit of background. Yeah, I started as a like graduated as an engineer. As every young engineer knows, I thought that the world revolves around engineering and engineers basically shape how the world would be. But then yeah, it didn’t take long until I faced the challenge of basically putting business cases for executives to give me the go-ahead or not for making those ideas become a reality.

I had to learn the hard way, like how to speak the executive language and learn about the business. Partially, I’ve done it through formal education and an MBA to kind of, again, speak the same language as those executives. Then, working many years later, working in business development, I also learned that the legal discussion, the contract negotiation, is a masterpiece that you kind of need to fully embrace and learn about and then yeah I’m a curious person I like challenges so I kind of had to learn also the legal attributes and then leading to me leading a full legal team and so.

So, I guess it’s a combination of curiosity, like bit of challenges. Sometimes it was intentional to take a new challenge or lead a new team in a new area. And sometimes it was kind of imposed on me. And I’m really grateful for those experiences. Again, the connection between all these fields or disciplines is really like problem-solving. Like if you have a purpose behind you, like problem solving, no matter what amount of skills or attributes that you use is really the intentionality and the purpose behind your problem solving that will get you through that.

Wes Ashworth (08:16)

Yeah, no doubt. I’ve said a lot that curiosity, resourcefulness, and problem-solving will get you very far in life. Just embracing those three. I want to touch on a little bit about how mentorship has played a part in shaping your path, and maybe one piece of advice that you’ve received at some point in your career that changed your trajectory.

Nasreddine Guerfala (08:25)

Yeah, I would say like mentorship immensely affected the shape of my professional career. Early on I had really, I was fortunate again to have a good mentor. Some of that was intentional, I always kind of sought mentorship from people that I admire and are in positions or places, whether in a professional setting or elsewhere in life, that I want to be in in the future. And yeah, early in my career, one of the VPs of engineering told me. Listen, don’t wait for doors to open for you, create them. And that really stuck with me. So, the question became, how do I create those doors? Part of it was networking and seeking mentors and seeking challenges, and I still have some mentors, people that I admire and want to become like them. And my advice for every young professional would be to seek mentorship. It can really shape your professional career, but also your life.

Wes Ashworth (09:40)

Yeah, that’s an awesome and powerful quote there. I can see why that one stuck with you. I love hearing just how those personal experiences shape your values and perspective. And I want to zoom out a little bit, and I’ll talk about some bigger focuses and things at play within the industry. So, you’ve worked at that intersection of policy, technology, and business, and I want to dig into how you see the system itself evolving. thinking about that. So, what do most people misunderstand about how policy really influences the clean energy transition as a whole?

Nasreddine Guerfala (10:11)

Yeah, I guess most people think about policy as the stick and the carrot. So, they see it, it’s either, it’s just incentive and funding, or it’s just regulations and things that basically don’t allow them to do the things that they do. I think if we zoom out from that, the bigger picture, and I don’t envy policymakers, it’s really creating the playing field for investors and for a whole ecosystem to project their future decisions based on the policy that exists and how the policy is shaped out.

A good policy maker would create a policy that can honestly affect generations to come. And a bad policy can stall one sector for a decade very easily. it’s really not just the rules and the funding and the incentives only. It’s really about creating the whole ecosystem and being more encompassing of stakeholders there, and kind of creating that long-term projection or long-term playing field to get all the stakeholders to play in a fair way and to promote social and economic kind of development in the sector.

Wes Ashworth (11:22)

Yeah, no, it’s good stuff. And one thing you’ve also shared is that you believe renewables will thrive even without the IRA or ITC, which obviously very relevant today. Tell me a bit about that. What makes you believe that, and what deeper forces are driving that inevitability?

Nasreddine Guerfala (11:37)

Yeah, I guess like a great policy is like the IRA that we’ve seen in 2022, really brought a lot of capital and a lot of buzz around, basically shaped the whole ecosystem about developers, construction consultants, and everything. I think like whether without those policies, there are some bigger forces in the market. The first one of it is basically economic. The matter of fact is that renewables are one of the cheapest ways of producing power around the world. So basically, money talks, and it’s one of the cheapest, and we’ll talk maybe later about how reliable it is. Then you know the second thing is like you know people’s sentiment, I think like people are really pushing in certain provinces, states, and countries or continents for renewable generation for the energy transition, for less carbon-intensive generation assets. So that’s huge. The other thing I will add to that is the software components. So, with the addition of AI and how software is shaping, I think the advancement that we would see from renewable generation is huge and unstoppable.

Wes Ashworth (12:47)

Yeah, thinking about more like, you’re close to home, you mentioned some of Ontario’s recent energy policy moves. Can you give us like the overview, the Cliff Notes version? And what makes this moment in the province worth watching?

Nasreddine Guerfala (12:59)

Yeah, yeah. We’ve been really fortunate here in Ontario with some policy development. I guess if I have to summarize it from the 40,000 feet viewpoint, in June, the government of Ontario released Energy for Generations, which comes back to how a policymaker can shape the playing field for generations, which basically focused on affordability, like clean energy and sustainability, for security for the energy system here in Ontario. There is really a big push for distributed energy resources and non-wire alternatives. So that means batteries and solar across the distribution system.

There is also a focus on our commitment to long-term procurement. We’re fortunate that Ontario is adding 14 terawatts of energy over the next four years, so with an LT2 process. So, in the bigger picture, Ontario needs 75 % more power by 2050. That’s driven by multiple factors, like EV adoptions, the growth of population, the growth of the commercial and industrial sector, lots of EV plants here, and like lots of industrial and data centers moving to the province.

So yeah, it’s been really like a lot of developments here. Maybe a couple of others that I will add are that they introduced the notion of corporate PPAs or power purchase agreements for like big consumers of energy, so they can directly contract with a renewable producer to reduce their peaks during the five major peaks here in Ontario. Another thing is the creation of what they call DSO, Distribution System Operator, for all the local distribution companies here to basically manage their own distribution system and all the distributed energy resources that they have here. So yeah, lots of great developments, and I think it’s sending a big signal for investors all around the world to basically bring their capital here.

So that, coupled with our federal incentives. We still have the ITC here in Canada, and we have the Canada Infrastructure Bank that’s bridging the gap and lending money at basically 1 % for the renewable projects. It’s a big push, I think, and we’ll see a lot of investment in renewables in Ontario, which we’re happy about.

Wes Ashworth (15:28)

Yeah, absolutely. Just thinking a little bit more about the policymaking side of the equation. Just from your perspective, if you had 30 seconds with a federal policymaker right now. What would you ask them to change? What kind of advice would you offer?

Nasreddine Guerfala (15:43)

Yeah, so this advice that I think if I think about is really including stakeholders before they make decisions. And I think certain governments really do well with this. So, for example, in Canada, we really have a period of conversation or feedback or engagement, depending on which government and what they call it, with multiple stakeholders. So that includes local communities, local governments, municipalities, includes indigenous groups, and consultants, engineers, developers, again, you name it, but basically putting presentations out, connecting with the local kind of community, really brings a different perspective. Even the engineering society would have its own say from a technical perspective. Before going ahead and putting a policy, I see governments over and over again just bringing up a policy and making it like a law.

And before you know it, you just kill the whole sector. And all you needed was a little bit of consultation to tweak certain things, so it’s not really pushing away investment and social and economic development in your area.

Wes Ashworth (16:54)

Yeah, really sound advice there. I love that sentiment. Just bringing in the stakeholders earlier, you know, talking through those things, I think, will provide just great perspective overall. But just fascinating to hear how policy and markets interact. And I know I’m always interested in that topic. I also know a big part of your current focus is the practical side, right, of how we make the energy system smarter, more efficient. I do want to talk about the work you’re doing with AI and software. So, describe what your platform actually looks like in action. And how does it help manufacturers or asset owners make smarter decisions?

Nasreddine Guerfala (17:25)

Yeah, so our platform, if I have to summarize it, you can think about it as like the energy strategist that helps you basically make the right decisions at the right times without moving your fingertips. Basically, it’s all automated if I had to do it. So, many years ago, I used to be an energy manager and director of energy, and they had to do a lot of data collection analysis, you know, strategizing, business case forming, and so on.

Now AI helps you do all of that at the same time, without spending days in data analysis and getting you all the insights that you need. So, at the core, it’s basically linking the physical assets that you have to the energy markets. It’s not just about conserving energy now, but it’s also like your assets can be generating revenue, and these physical assets can be generating revenue for you, and our platform helps with visibility with decision-making and with monetization of your assets.

Wes Ashworth (18:28)

Yeah, no good overall overview. And I know your team includes a lot of smart individuals, many PhDs, developing AI tools. What are they solving that will shape the market in the next 12 to 18 months?

Nasreddine Guerfala (18:39)

Yeah, a few things actually, and I wish I were as smart as them. I guess, at the core, they’re trying to build the models to make our platform smarter in terms of, first, data collection, data visualization, and energy markets. Each province has its own energy market, so they’re integrating all of those. know, optimization of assets. We’re dealing with a lot of assets, from generators to battery storage to solar and even your HVAC in the building.

So, basically bringing all of these assets and their different platform under one umbrella. And the other one is interacting with basically the grid, the grid itself, and participating and the automation of that. So, they’re constantly trying to optimize how all these assets work together. But in the core, too, they’re trying to make this and to build trust with the customer by actually making the platform as easy as intuitive to deal with and to basically allow the operators and the asset owners to interact with the platform in a seamless way.

Wes Ashworth (19:48)

Yeah, that’s awesome. I want to dig more into just kind of how it works. So, even for those maybe outside the space or those inside the space, you know, we hear everything about AI, AI doing everything in the world. And I want to kind of break this down a little bit. How does AI make real-world energy systems more efficient and resilient? Kind of like how does it work? And if you can give us that sort of overview would be great.

Nasreddine Guerfala (20:12)

Yeah, absolutely. Multiple ways. And I’ll back it up with some examples. I guess think of some of the features that you would do. So, if you were like an industrial park or a hospital, usually you would have different types of assets. You would have rooftop solar. You would have a generator on site, battery storage, and probably EV charging. And usually, you have different systems.

So, one thing is that AI helps you with the visualization of all these assets, automating your manual dispatch. So generally, you would have operators that actually had to move on site and press buttons, whether on a computer or physically in some cases. So, automation of all of that visualization is something that AI does very efficiently. Three, now think about you know a real estate developer or real estate asset owner with like thousands of buildings across you know sometimes multiple continents. So, when they have their energy bills coming each month like it takes hours and hours to just put these bills in the system and analyze them and see if there are any mistakes or so.

So, AI helps you integrate all this data seamlessly. We actually built a platform that connects to over 6,000 utilities across the world and basically gets your bill automatically from the utility and analyzes the bill, and tells you if there are any mistakes or issues or any increase in energy consumption or so. Three is the optimization. Again, I kind of touched on it. So, between the different systems that you have, you have to kind of prioritize your schedule. Let’s say you’re like a front-of-the-meter Asset manager, you have solar, you have storage, you have sometimes wind, and so on. Like you have to kind of schedule your day to basically dispatch your assets during the times where energy is most needed and you have the highest price of the highest return on investment.

So, similar to behind the meter, you have to kind of prioritize which assets should be working and which assets should be, maybe curtailed during certain times to avoid some peaks and reduce your energy consumption. In sum like AI basically makes things a lot easier, a lot faster. You don’t need an energy manager, an energy analyst, or an energy coordinator; the platform does it all for you and in a seamless way.

We hear a lot from our customers, listen, we want to focus on our core business, which is, you know, producing this or that, and we don’t want to be chasing, reducing our energy consumption or our energy participation in the market. Our platform and AI allow you to do that.

Wes Ashworth (22:46)

Yeah, it’s incredible, especially seeing where technology is going and how quickly it’s evolving. I think with that, it does sometimes create a gap between technical potential and customer understanding. I’m curious, how do you navigate that, and what has to change, maybe for this work to really scale and take off as we all believe it will?

Nasreddine Guerfala (23:03)

Yeah, absolutely. It’s a great question. It’s really, and that’s part of my role and part of like kind of my professional background where I try to bridge the gap between the tech, the buzzword, the AI, and all these models that our people are building and the ultimate customer experience. Because if the customer doesn’t understand that, or cause customers don’t buy buzzwords, it used to be like the internet of things. Now it’s AI. They really buy outcomes, and then outcomes are different for each customer.

So, I learned early on in my career that I need to speak the language of the customer. So, if they’re producing some manufacturing units, like you can, you have to convert the energy savings that they’re getting or the energy, or like convert everything either to dollars or even better units of production.

So exactly, so like we help customers, like bridging the gap, is really building awareness within the customers. Sometimes customers have no idea what their energy consumption is, they don’t have the awareness that AI can actually bridge that gap, and they don’t have to hire many people, or they don’t have to analyze for days or so. So yeah, it’s building awareness and focusing on outcomes. It’s basically this is the amount that’s gonna come to your bottom line, and I think that helps customers adopt more of these technologies, and it’s an easier transition for them to get AI, and like buy the AI revolution in the energy sector.

Wes Ashworth (24:38)

Yeah, absolutely. Good stuff. Very practical, I would agree 100%. Thinking about it, you’ve been at this intersection of sorts, clean tech, AI, and infrastructure. What’s one hard lesson you’ve learned just being there, kind of in the middle of it, especially as it is evolving really quickly.

Nasreddine Guerfala (24:53)

Yeah, I’m not sure it’s a hard lesson now, but something that kind of keeps me up at night when I zoom out a little bit, with AI and its energy consumption. So, like we’re promoting these AI platforms, and so it’s definitely for a good cause. It’s definitely helping customers. But if it’s going to turn to, you know, using AI that actually consumes a lot of energy with like these data centers that are coming, like are we net positive at the end or not?

So, I’m really making sure that whatever we’re creating is not actually consuming more energy on the other end. It’s something that we’re developing and making sure to optimize our energy consumption through the AI models that we’re creating. So, we’re not creating the need for more energy while reducing it on the customer side.

Wes Ashworth (25:42)

Yeah, I had it recently on another episode. We talked a little bit about that and sort of the offset hasn’t really been measured either of kind of like, AI, it’s going to use some more energy, but do you save some other energy on the other end where it’s efficiency gains or as you said, you don’t need three people maybe that you used to need. Now with AI, you have one person kind of like helping you go through it, but then the tool is doing a lot

So, there is an offset, I’m sure there, but we don’t know exactly what that is, but great, just thoughts in terms of just paying attention to that and keeping that on the mind for sure.

So, technology, innovation are critical, obviously. We talked a little bit about that. But at the end of the day, I think this industry is driven by people. You touched on that early on. That’s something obviously I’m very passionate about. But I’d love to shift gears and talk a little bit about career paths and growth, what it takes to lead in a dynamic space. So, thinking about your career, everything you’ve done, your mentors, all that. What advice would you give to someone just entering the energy space or switching into it?

Nasreddine Guerfala (26:44)

Yeah, great question. First of all, if anybody is entering the energy space, congratulations. It’s one of the most exciting times to be in this space. I think it’s probably the largest revolution happening after the Industrial Revolution. Our grids have to shift; that’s going to take time. It’s probably decades. And it’s a very exciting place to be.

Two, if I were to give any advice, it’s really like, pick your niche, like there is a lot of facets within the energy market space, whether it’s policy, whether it’s really technical, but even in the technical there is, let’s say battery storage, there is renewables, there is an energy efficiency side, there is the carbon side and sustainability side. So, pick your niche, and try to be one of the best experts in the field. So, whether through formal education or training, specialized training, try to be a specialist, but also keep in mind the bigger picture so follow the trends follow what’s happening, follow the policy like advancement that are happening because some of the best individuals or professionals that I know are both, specialist in one, one of the best specialists, but also have the strategic thinking and makes the bigger view.  

The other thing I think I mentioned earlier is like seek mentorship. So that can be, early on, that can be, some good leaders to work for, but also some good companies that actually like pushing personal development, and they invest in their human resources. Some companies are really good to start your career with.

And the last thing I would mention is probably like, get involved. You have to get involved to build your network. So, whether that’s through association and volunteering work in the sector that you’re in, it’s really valuable and builds your network and kind of like your net worth for decades to come in terms of your professional career.

Wes Ashworth (28:37)

Yeah, absolutely. Several really good pieces of advice there. One, think, you know, seeking mentorship, and I always tell people, somebody told me early on, I’ve mentioned this several times, I think, in the podcast already, but the world belongs to askers. Like if you just ask, sometimes somebody you respect, somebody you look up to, and you just ask them for, hey, would you, would you be open to a mentorship relationship with me, or maybe we can meet once a month and give me some advice. And we talk through things.

People are so willing to do that and usually very eager to pass on wisdom, pass on knowledge, and help. Because we’ve all, anybody at any level of success has had mentors along the way, right? And you don’t forget that. And the ability to give that back to someone else is really powerful. And it’s available. People are willing to do that. So, ask, right? So, I love a lot of that. I know we’ve talked a bit about just fear and opportunity. I think I’ve mentioned one of my favorite quotes from George Adair is, everything you’ve ever wanted is on the other side of fear.

And it’s so true, what’s something maybe once you avoided, or you once avoided, and now you lean into?

Nasreddine Guerfala (29:38)

Yeah, think that’s also a great question. I think I was a graduate from engineering, kind of all introverted. And basically, I don’t want to be in the spotlight, public speaking or public appearances and so, so kind of like avoided it in the first few years and boy oh boy how wrong I was so that shifted now that’s I think I had one rule by my mentor he said for the next decade any speaking opportunities that you get whether that’s on a panel in a conference if you’re asked to speak in an association just say yes, your rule is never say no to a speaking opportunity no matter how big or small it is and kind of follow that rule and really shaped me immensely.

So, now I don’t necessarily seek, but I still, for the most part, don’t say no to speaking and opportunities. Sometimes you would ask yourself; why am I doing this? It’s stressful, and so it really shapes your public speaking abilities and like it builds your brand and puts you out there and makes you basically like a hot leader, and like that’s something that I now don’t fear anymore and try to actively participate in. I know.

Wes Ashworth (30:45)
Yeah, that’s awesome. And now you’re on podcasts in the spotlight, which is great. And I think it’s just practice, right? It’s just the repetition of doing it. I try to tell my daughter all the time, she’s a phenomenal soccer player, and she’s got such skill. tell her like, you’re so far beyond where I was at your age. But I tell her like, if you see someone who’s better and it’s the same in professions, right? public speaking, you’re like.

That person’s so put together, that gosh, they’re just so good and natural. They’ve done it more times, and they’ve, and more importantly, they’ve failed at it more times, and it’s that of like, if someone’s better at you at something, they’ve failed at it more times than you have. Simple as that. And so, you do have to put yourself out there. I love that challenge of like, for a set amount of time, I’m just gonna say yes to any speaking engagements, any time I get asked the question, because you’re accountable to that and sort of forcing you to get out of your comfort zone and do that, so.

That’s incredible stuff. Thinking about this space in particular, and you hit on this a couple of times, I’d love to hear any more, beyond just technical skills, which we know are important, you have to have those, but what makes someone truly effective in this space, beyond the technical skills and all that other stuff?

Nasreddine Guerfala (32:00)

Yeah, absolutely. I think in my own language, I call it the attitude. But I think what I mean by that is really like the personal attributes of a person. I think hard skills or technical skills are always there. You can learn them if you’re curious enough and committed enough. But the personal attributes of being there when it’s needed, being a team player, chiming in when the team needs you, not saying, no, this is not my job, I can’t do this or so. What I call attitude is really the leadership that you take, owning your task, accountability, and I know I’m naming many things there, but it takes a certain type of personality or what I call attitude.

What basically makes you more effective, owning your tasks and delivering on time, and Stuff like that, is very important, it doesn’t go unnoticed with your manager or your company, and basically propels your career. It’s also the soft skills, right? Especially when you’re in like, again, hard skills everybody can have, the degree or the technical skills, but basically not everybody can explain it that well, not everybody can be approachable, not everybody can be put in front of a customer. And those skills are really very valuable if you want to promote your career.

Wes Ashworth (33:21)

Yeah, absolutely. And several other things you mentioned earlier, too, just that curiosity, resourcefulness, and problem-solving. I think those are all key fundamental things. And that just comes from putting yourself out there, being willing, asking the questions. I had somebody tell me early on, treat it like you own the business. If you were a business owner and you walked by a problem, what would you do? Work on fixing it or pick up that piece of trash on the floor. Something so basic and simple, but it’s just that mindset. Mindset and attitude, as you said, which I think are critically important. And you see it. I see it from entry level to even the C-suite level. The ones that make it usually up there are really successful. They’ve honed all those other soft skills and personal traits, and attitude, as all the things you’ve mentioned there, too. So really, really important.

What’s something I guess you’re thinking about that a little bit? So, something you wish maybe more young professionals understood about building long-term influence, and just thinking about that as a whole.

Nasreddine Guerfala (34:16)

Yeah, so I guess it’s not really about just how many posts you put there or how many videos or so. I guess that’s kind of like the TikTok mentality right now. That’s important, but it’s also the substance behind it. Being able to be accountable and to deliver on time, and to put your name behind some tasks and actually deliver on them, is really important. It’s like basically consistency and accountability. I think leading by example is important to be an influencer in a professional career. It’s not just about the public appearances and how many posts you put out there, but it’s really about being known as somebody who can deliver and can be consistent and accountable.

Wes Ashworth (35:01)

Yeah, no doubt. And as you said earlier, your network is your net worth, right? It’s incredibly important to build that and build in a meaningful way, as you said, too. So, as we start to get closer to wrapping up, I want to look ahead a little bit. the future of energy is being written right now. You mentioned us just being in this incredible moment. I want to talk a little bit about what decentralization really means, some myths you’d love to bust, and a legacy you hope to leave. So, just starting out a little bit on the decentralization topic.

What does it actually mean in practice? And then how can utilities and customers work together instead of against each other?

Nasreddine Guerfala (35:37)

Yeah, absolutely. So maybe it’s good to set the background there. I guess for a hundred years, utility has been, have been like a monopoly. It’s a top-down approach. The power is produced here. It’s getting distributed by utilities. Sometimes utilities play both roles and are basically distributed to customers, and you get a bill at the end of the month, and you have no other option than to pay the bill. I guess that concept has been challenged for the last decade or so, and customers with the newer technologies want to have more say about their power purchases, whether because of sustainability reasons, affordability reasons, or just the right to decide which power and how much they’re paying for power.

So, customers how there has seen this movement from larger customers and entities to either produce their own power or get you know certain devices or certain technologies on their premises, such as battery storage energy to store some energy when power is cheap and deploy it when power is really high to get from utilities. So that creates a decentralization of assets. assets are not just at the power generation side, but assets are also within the customer premises. decentralization, whether some of the larger customers are becoming almost mini-utilities and big power producers.

So, it basically forces utilities to rethink their model, business model in totality. And I honestly saw this firsthand, I worked for utilities, and there were two schools of thinking. It’s like, hey, we’ve always done it this way. We’re going to keep doing it that way. And we’re just going to try to restrict data to customers or access, and this and the newer kind of type of thinking and new generation of energy professionals saying no we should be a big player of this new ecosystem and if we don’t adopt it early on we’re gonna be just pass through customers and we’re gonna just being like that in like 20-30 years or so right customers will take over.

So, I guess in the new ecosystem, we’re at a point where utilities are in of acceptance stage and basically trying to work with customers. Because the more there are assets on the customer premises, the more there is visibility from utilities, and they can’t even manage their own grids. They can’t predict when peaks are going to happen or when customers will deploy those energy assets. So now they’re trying to create programs. So, utilities are embracing it slowly, and they’re becoming enablers for customers to play in their space. And they’re trying to become a major player in enabling decentralization, being the people that have the reliability, accountability of the grid, and the know-how of massive scale of decentralized energy resources. So, I’m glad, actually, that we’re moving this way, where utilities are embracing it, rather than just saying, OK, no, this is our side of expertise. You just pay the bill.

Wes Ashworth (38:42)

Yeah, exactly. No, it is really good to see such a, I don’t know, in my mind, kind of a broken old model, but it’s nice to see it evolve. So, I want to do a little bit of myth-busting as well as I said. So, what’s one false narrative you hear all the time that just needs to be retired? Like, what are some myths that are out there that you hear and want to want to speak on?

Nasreddine Guerfala (39:02)

Yeah, I guess the big one is that renewables are unreliable. I think renewables have proven time and time again, they are very reliable. When the wind doesn’t blow and when the sunshine there is no sun there is no solar or so but in certain places there has been consistent proven results by renewables and when we add the emergence of battery storage now they can be extended for multiple hours and basically help the grid I think I think they are very instrumental to at least bridge the gap between now and when we have maybe 24 hour or long duration storage at a massive scale for each. So, they have been reliable, they are reliable, and they will be even more reliable in the future. The other thing is the talk about renewable assets and how carbon-intensive. So yes, they help avoid carbon emissions during their utilization, but what about their creation? They actually may have been using fossil fuels. I guess studies have proven many times over that the life cycle analysis of its really renewable assets. Yes, they may have used fossil fuels to create them, but the benefits that we get over 30 years outperform the carbon emissions that have been emitted during their creation. So those two myths, I really don’t want to have to justify them. There have been multiple studies out there, and it’s been proven over time.

Wes Ashworth (40:37)

Yeah, those are two big ones for sure. I appreciate you speaking on those and providing some context, and would encourage anyone to do some research. There are a lot of studies out there, things that have been done to debunk both of those, but it’s common. You hear those two come up all the time, so that’s good. As we get a little closer here, so when you think let’s go 20 years ahead, what do you hope to leave behind? What do you hope people will say that you helped build in that time?

Nasreddine Guerfala (41:01)

This is a deep question. But I honestly think about it quite often, at least once a year or so. What is my legacy? What do I want to leave behind me? I want to be remembered as somebody who has built awareness in the energy transition time, who has built a network of people. I’ve been the President of the Association of Energy Engineers, and it was very rewarding to build a community around energy efficiency and renewable sustainability that I want people to recall about my time in the space.

Also, being a person of business and with a strong interest in policy, I hope to be remembered as somebody who shaped the policy at some point in time to enable the energy transition at a certain time, and who scaled some companies to a level that actually made a difference in this space.

Wes Ashworth (41:58)

Yeah, good stuff there, and good powerful sentiment as well, and a great way just to kind of wrap up the conversation. So, Nasreddine, this has really been fantastic. Thank you for sharing your story, your insight, and your vision for the future. To all our listeners out there, always you for tuning in. I hope there’s one thing you take away today, and that’s that energy is as much about the people and conviction as it is about technology and markets. That’s equally, if not more important.

So, leaders like Nas remind us that progress happens when we stay curious, collaborative, and courageous. With that, thanks for tuning in to Green Giants. If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who cares about where clean energy is headed next. And we will see you soon.