Green Giants – Episode 65

Owen (01:50)

So, I started getting interested in it, man, in like 2008, when there was not really a sustainability industry. I mean, sustainability at the time was like LEED. And I had a finance degree out of college. And so, I was trying to figure out ways to break into LEED, but at the time, it was really an industry for like engineers and architects. I mean, it still is, but there’s more variability and sort of what your background could be. And so, I was trying to figure out how to break into kind of the LEED industry or just be a part of LEED, and I couldn’t figure out how to do it.

So, I decided I’ll go to grad school and get a degree in environmental science and management, and then I hoped that that combination of finance background with environmental science and management could kind of launch me into something. I didn’t know what that would be, but I figured it’s two years for the industry to grow, get a little bit more mature. It’s another piece of paper that says I know what I’m talking about. I hoped that two degrees were better than one, and it worked; it launched me into a career as a corporate energy manager for a Fortune 500 company. So fortunately, it all worked out just like I hoped it would.

Wes (02:58)

That’s awesome. You put out a plan. Obviously, intention is a big piece of that as well. And I think aligning passion. Anytime you align passion, I think good things can happen. As you just mentioned, I mentioned in the intro as well, you spent those three years as a global energy manager at a Fortune 500 company. What did that role teach you about the clean energy opportunity, and what are some of those takeaway lessons that you still use today?

Owen (03:07)

It taught me that generally, the boardroom does not care about the environment, but they care about dollars. And that was a super important lesson to learn early on because I think if our industry can do a better job repositioning these projects as really revenue drivers and sort of forget about carbon, forget about trees, forget about polar bears, we’ll have more success implementing projects.

Wes (03:43)

Yeah, and it’s cool to see that trend happening. I think more and more, even over the past several years, you’re hearing so much more of that and like making a business case for it, making sure the economics make sense, talking a lot about that a lot more. So, I agree. I mean, but it’s cool. You were able to see that sort of firsthand getting experience. You made the leap into entrepreneurship in 2015. What pushed you to do that? Like what happened to where you thought, like, all right, maybe I need to go do this and jump out there. Was there a moment that shifted your mindset, or how did that all come to pass?

Owen (04:11)

Yeah, no, it was one pretty specific moment. So, I had always, before the term side hustle was a term, I always had side hustles, right? I was always doing something I always just had this desire to try and figure out a business and so at the time I was working on a company that I coined to Wattito because I was living in Southern California I was going to Mexico on a lot of surf trips and so as my Spanish was It was improving and Wattito means little watt and I was like, it’s a great name for energy company.

And so, the idea was just to, at the time, this is when LED lights were sort of taking over. So, tons of parking garages in Southern California, I noticed that the majority of parking garages were lit with linear fluorescence, no lighting controls, lights were on 24/7. And so, sort of taking what I learned from the energy manager role, I was like, all of these parking garages are great candidates for lighting upgrades to LED. So, I tried to start a company that just did that, just focused on parking garages. And I was part of a program in San Diego that kind of helped you think through business models, connected you with angel investors. And I was pitching an angel investor, and he said, What are you doing to earn money? Like, how are you surviving as you try and build this company? And I said, well, I’ve got a regular, nine-to-five corporate job. And he looked at me deadpan and said, I don’t invest in part-time entrepreneurs. I was like, man, that hurt. But it was so honest and so important for me to hear because at the time, I was asking people for money when I didn’t believe in myself or my business enough to take the leap.

So, within a couple of weeks, I quit my job, and I was full-time Wattito, and it failed. It blew up; it never took off. I reached out to that guy, Bill was his name, and told him, I’m committed, like time to write the check. And he’s like, nah, that’s not really for me. it taught me like, if you’re not ready to take the leap and you’re not ready to really believe in yourself, like it’s gonna be really hard to get investors on board.

Wes (06:13)

Yeah, no doubt about it. I love that kind of like all in, like if you don’t believe in it fully, how can an investor? But that’s a great story. But you didn’t quit, obviously. Like first one failed. And then talk to me a little bit about that after? Like, that’s not easy to go through, but you stuck with it, obviously, and kept going.

Owen (06:31)

Yeah, I’m naturally a pretty stubborn person, which isn’t always good, but I think it’s pretty good in business. I think that’s a good trait to have. And I knew that there was sort of a revolution happening within the lighting industry. So, I kept trying to. So, then I started a company called Lumio that was more like, all right, let’s take a step back. Let’s not just focus on parking garages. There are a lot of other types of companies that can benefit from LED upgrades. And again, that failed like that; it just did not go well.

It was probably 18 months before I had any kind of traction. Yeah. And I found traction in a grant program in California called Prop 39. Where they were giving public school districts grant money to invest in renewable energy, energy efficiency. I noticed a sort of market gap between the big districts and the little districts. So, we just went out to serve all the little districts. And we ended up doing eight figures in revenue in like the next 18 months just because there was this huge need. And so, it quickly went from lighting, we did lighting, and then one of the schools that we did a lighting project for asked if we could do HVAC, and being like a hungry entrepreneur, I said yes. So, then we had to figure out how to do HVAC. And then they asked if we could do solar. So, then we said yes, figured out how to do solar. So quickly morphed into this, just this niche Esco for rural school districts. I mean, and it was wild to see that growth.

I had never experienced anything like it. I was not expecting it. It would have just caught me by surprise.

Wes (07:59)

And as most entrepreneurs, it’s usually not your first time, like second, third, you got to keep going, but that’s awesome. That’s a cool story. So, from Lumio to ZNE Capital to Shine, you built multiple ventures, obviously now. What’s the through line that connects them all?

Owen (08:02)

I think it’s just figuring out how to deploy on-site renewable energy faster. That’s like the theme, right? I thought with ZNE Capital, so I ended up selling Lumio, had a little bit of personal capital, and started using that to invest in multifamily real estate. I noticed that the multifamily industry is probably the furthest behind when it comes to energy management. So, Z &E Capital started to try and shift that industry. At first, it started as a consulting company to try and get other owners to adopt solar into their acquisitions noticed that it’s really hard to change real estate sort of from the outside. And so, we started buying apartments ourselves, putting on-site solar on. The hypothesis was that if we did it and we did it well, we could show that solar is accretive to Project Global Returns, and we could get the industry to start adopting it faster.

Well, the problem was there was not really, there was not the right technology, existing technology to really deploy solar on multifamily because in most of the US, if you want to install solar on multifamily properties beyond the common area meter, you have to install one small solar system per apartment unit. And in order to do that, you need a software system that allows you to build tenants and do measurement verification post installation. And that didn’t exist. So, we just sort of kept pulling on the thread. Where does this lead? How are we gonna do this better? How are we gonna do it faster? And it led to us developing Shine, which started as a software platform. And then we started to see what we actually developed, and we’re like, this is way bigger than us buying apartment buildings. Let’s pivot back to what we know how to do, which is deploy onsite solar, and let’s just do it for the multifamily industry. That’s it. So, we get asked to do, you know, industrial sites. We get asked to do shopping centers. We get asked to do residential. We turn it all down because all we do is install solar on multifamily properties.

Wes (10:04)

Yeah, that’s incredible stuff. It’s a cool story, and we’ll get more into what Shine does and what you’re doing in the marketplace.

So, it’s clear your path has been driven by a vision for real impact, not just innovation for innovation’s sake. And that brings us to the heart of what you’ve been working on these past few years, and just thinking about that, not just building new technology, but figuring out how to actually get it into the world at scale. But I do want to talk about the obstacles and breakthroughs you’ve encountered while trying to push the clean tech concept to widespread adoption. And so, you’ve said that the biggest issue in clean tech isn’t invention, it’s deployment. And I love that sentiment.

What are the real obstacles keeping us from moving faster?

Owen (10:41)

Generally, it stays within, so when I was in corporate America, it was the sustainability department, and now that I’m in multifamily, it’s the ESG department. The sustainability department and the ESG department are too siloed. So, these projects stay in these little tiny departments that are way smaller than a similar department, like a different department of similar importance within an organization. So, I just don’t think there are enough people working on these projects or focusing on them. But I also think it’s kind of our own fault because we, the ESG teams, or we, the sustainability teams, often stay in our own silo. We don’t, within multifamily, we don’t talk to the asset managers enough. We don’t talk to the property managers enough. Same thing with corporate sustainability.

So, I feel like we just need to get these conversations, we need to level them up beyond our department, and get engagement from other departments. I mean, there’s a lot of other problems, but that’s a big one.

Wes (11:43)

No question. And something you mentioned, too. So, Shine started as an internal fix for your real estate portfolio. Tell us a bit more about that. And then what was the specific frustration that led you to just build something new entirely?

Owen (11:53)

So, when ZNE Capital started, we were buying master metered apartment buildings. So, they’re apartment buildings built like hotels. You may have 250 apartment units, but one electric meter. And we were doing that purposefully because it was the only way that we could figure out how to install on-site solar beyond the common area meter. So, when you have apartment buildings, you have generally tenants with their own electric meters, and they’re responsible for 95ish  percent of total electric consumption on a multifamily property. Then you have the common area meters, which may cover the leasing office, the fitness center, the pool, and the exterior lights. That’s only 5 % of total electric consumption. When you have a master meter property, that’s both. So, it’s the entire load of the property in a single meter. And so, we said, all right, let’s go buy those and deploy onsite solar, because that’s easy. Those properties are old, and they’re hard to find.

So, we’re building a business model on hard-to-find and hard-to-manage assets, which is not a good business model to build. That is a challenging business model. So, we want to figure out, right, how do we take the same approach of what we call the solar value add, and how do we deploy it on individually metered properties? And the challenge that we ran into was that there are three states where what I’m about to say doesn’t hold true. And those three states are California, Colorado, and Massachusetts, because they have something called virtual net energy metering, which we can get into. But in the 47 other states, if you want to install solar beyond the common area meters, you have to install one small solar system per apartment unit. Yeah, that’s a slightly more complicated installation approach. But that wasn’t what was holding us up. What was holding us up was post-installation. How do we bill those 200 tenants that each have their own solar system? Sure. How do we monitor those 200 solar systems to make sure that they’re all actually working, and there was not a tool out there that existed.

And so, the first thing that we did was we asked some of these solar billing companies, Can you build us this tool so that we can go acquire individually made properties? And they said no, which at the time was incredibly frustrating, but it actually turned into like the biggest miss, like advantageous miss for us because it forced us to develop this tool ourselves. And then once we developed this tool, we basically realized that we just unlocked solar for the entire multifamily industry. And so now we intimately understand multifamily because we’ve bought it. We intimately understand solar because that’s what we’ve been doing for 12 years. And we’ve purpose-built a software platform for solar in the multifamily industry. And so, we’re better positioned than anybody to just crack that nut of how do we get solar on apartments across the US.

Wes (14:42)

Yeah, that’s incredible. Awesome stuff. And you’ve mentioned several, but I’m curious as to any others. Why is solar adoption in multifamily housing so low? Anything else that you haven’t hit on yet? And then what are some of those hidden frictions that most people don’t see or don’t think about?

Owen (14:58)

So, the big problem in multifamily that’s different from owner-occupied real estate is, it’s called the split incentive problem. So, the solar company asks the owner of the multifamily property, pay a million dollars for the solar system so that your tenants can save money. And the owners are like I’m not doing that. Like, why am I going to spend money if it’s going to save the tenants money? And that same problem, that split incentive problem, that’s the reason that energy efficiency is hard in multifamily.

Because the same problem exists, like you save tenants money, which is great for tenants, but the landlord has to foot the bills. That’s just not realistic. And so, what we’re trying to solve, kind of at the core with our software, is how we can shift the value from the tenant to the owner to incentivize them to pay for that capex in the first place. And that’s really the key to unlocking solar for multifamilies, helping owners and landlords make money off their investment.

Wes (15:56)

And speaking of that, so you have described Shine’s impact in terms of financial returns and not sustainability, you touched on that briefly in the beginning as well. I’m curious to learn more about that. Just how do you do that? And how do you turn solar into a value engine for multifamily investors? What does that look like in real life?

Owen (16:12)

I mean, so if you think about your average tenant, they’re spending maybe a hundred bucks a month in electricity. And they’re always gonna spend that. There’s no way to avoid an electricity bill in an apartment building. The question that we ask apartment owners is, do you want that tenant paying a hundred dollars to the utility, or do you want that tenant paying a hundred dollars to you? It’s either you or the utility. And oftentimes, what we see is that it’s almost always.

The financials of on-site solar for multifamily are compelling enough to the point where owners want to invest in the CapEx. There are a few states where that’s not true, like Kansas, in particular that it’s really hard to get the numbers to work. But in almost every other state, you’re talking like high teens IRR over a 10-year hold, which is generally higher than they’re getting from the real estate investment itself, which means your solar project is accretive to the project of a returns, which means LPs, the limited partners make more money, which means general partners make more money, which means you can go buy more real estate.

Wes (17:19)

No brainer. Thinking about it just a little bit in your experience. So, what do multifamily owners usually believe about solar when you first talk to them and you’re first having some of those initial meetings? How does that belief shift once they see your approach?

Owen (17:31)

So, the solar industry at large has tried to convince multifamily owners to install solar in the common area meters only. Because that’s the easy way to do it. The problem with that is that the numbers are not compelling enough for anybody to spend time on it. And that’s just the unfortunate reality. So, if you have a 200-unit property that costs $40 million to buy. Part of that’s going to be debt. Part of that’s going to be equity.

The common area spends for that property, maybe, $100,000 a year in common area electricity. So solar companies are pitching apartment owners, let’s spend, I don’t know, $400,000 to save $50,000, or maybe we can just use these numbers, $50,000 of your common area electric bill. Yeah. And $50,000 in NOI, the net operating income just is not big enough on a $40 million property to get anybody’s attention. And so they’re like, this is nice, but I’m going to focus on projects that move the needle more. So, with our approach, it’s instead of spending $400,000, let’s spend $3 million. And instead of $50,000 in NOI, let’s generate $200,000 in NOI. And now you’re talking about numbers that are generally big enough that it at least gets somebody’s attention.

They don’t always do it, but it’s getting the attention that’s the hardest part. And then from there we can go through, okay, here’s how we would actually do it. Let’s dial in these numbers a little bit more. Maybe it’s not that project, but now they’re thinking about it for future acquisitions. And that’s really what we’re trying to entrench in the industry is if you’re not thinking about this on your future acquisitions, you’re just leaving money on the table. And that’s generally not how real estate works, right? They’re very profit-oriented.

Wes (19:27)

100% Yeah, no, that’s super cool. And just kind of hearing how Shine was born out of both a little bit of frustration, and there wasn’t a solution. So, you had to really create one, and then just that opportunity that was there. It’s fascinating, especially how you found ways to make solar financially compelling, as you just mentioned, there for multifamily owners. But as with any industry, even the best ideas run into bigger systemic challenges. And I want to shift gears and dig into some of the harder truths about the clean tech world and why the road to scaling sustainable solutions is not always smooth.

One of the things you always hear, and it comes up a lot, especially when you’re talking about residential, multifamily, solar, is just bad contractors doing real damage to the industry. There are a lot of bad actors. There are a lot of good ones as well, but talk to me a bit about that. Why is it such a critical issue, and what do we need to know?

Owen (20:13)

So, I agree, there’s a lot of bad contractors out there, but I also feel that some of the blame has to go on, in this example, the homeowners who are chasing a low bid. Low bid forces contractors to use the shittiest components that they can find, because they’re looking for that cheapest dollar per watt install. So, I think our industry has to do a better job of walking away from low-bid scenarios, even though that’s hard to do. It’s hard to walk away from work, but we’ve decided not to do that. We’re not gonna chase a low bid because that’s gonna force us to install components that we know are not gonna last a long time. We know that they’re gonna fail, and the warranty is not gonna, you know, the manufacturer is not gonna stand behind the warranty. And then we’re gonna look like a bad contractor because we can’t go replace that or we repair it.

So, it’s tricky because I feel like customers need to understand that you can’t just chase a low bid. And I feel like contractors need to do better if they are going to go after explaining, like, look, we’re trying to install this for as cheap as possible, based on your suggestion. That is going to introduce risks of components failing earlier than they should.

Wes (21:22)

Yeah. Do you think a lot of that comes down to the education of the homeowner or the folks who are in that buying decision? Like, do they not know? And is it a matter of explaining it correctly, and why you maybe should take a higher quality option, or those sorts of things?

Owen (21:38)

It’s hard because there’s generally no apples-to-apples consistency in proposals. You have contractors using different modules, different inverters. Our average customer, your average homeowner, doesn’t understand the difference between string inverters and micro inverters, and what that means if one of them fails. They don’t understand the difference between tier one modules and tier three modules. So honestly, I don’t know how you solve the problem. What I do think is interesting is there’s a huge opportunity, and any contractor in any of the trades will agree with what I’m about to say, and that’s if you create the reputation that you’re a good contractor, you do what you say you do, it on time and you do it on budget you don’t need to market because word of mouth works for you. And so, I think that’s the opportunity that we have in our industry is for sort of the, you know, the cream to rise. And for those contractors to win based on word of mouth, where other contractors are going to have to spend a ton on marketing because they don’t get that.

Wes (22:42)

It’s probably one of the most like word of mouth driven industries there is and I think about like me personally It’s that way like I have three four contractors that I use for different things and I will only use them and anybody in my life that needs that particular thing I send them to that person because I go yeah, they’re honest. They’re not gonna lie to you. They’re not gonna sell you something you don’t need; they’re gonna be straight with you. They do good work, and you’re putting your name on the line, but you’re happy to do that. But yeah, you’re right.

The double-edged sword is then they become so busy. That’s when I need help, I gotta wait a little longer. But they’re quality, you’re okay with that. Yes, I think it’s all those things. Thinking about the industry as a whole, how do you think the industry should address the quality gap without slowing down deployment?

Owen (23:24)

Well, I think they’re going to be forced to next year with the big bill. I mean, I don’t know how this would have happened without the recent legislation, but I think the bad contractors are going to get forced out of business. Unfortunately, fortunately, or unfortunately. So, I think we’re going to see a big shift in the industry. I think residential will get hit first, just the way that the tax credits are changing there. And then I think the commercial is going to follow shortly behind the second half of 26 and 2027.

Wes (23:52)

Yeah, and maybe that’ll go into solving this next question. There’s a major shortage of skilled trades. Granted, if a bunch of bad contractors go away, then there might be more people available. But what’s your take on how to attract new talent, and why is the industry up to this point sort of falling short there?

Owen (24:07)

That’s a great question, too. I don’t know. I do think it’s changing to a certain extent. I have heard that, like Gen Z and generations after that, skilled trades are becoming more in vogue than it was for my generation. Nobody, when I was finishing high school, nobody mentioned anything about the skilled trades. It was not an option. It was just going to college or getting a job. But it was never to get a job in the skilled trades, which is interesting.

I think, at that company, Lumia, that I had, we tried to engage. So, we were doing a lot of work with schools. We’re doing clean tech projects with schools. And in California, clean tech was the fastest-growing job market in the state. And we brought this to schools, and we said, This is a great opportunity for project-based learning. Like, let’s identify the kids that are not college-bound. Let’s get them out there with the contractors when we’re building the solar systems on site or doing the HVAC optimizations, and let’s teach them about career pathways post-high school. And it just fell on deaf ears. We could not figure out how to get it off the ground. I was shocked because I was like, man, this is like the greatest idea ever. Like, let’s use these projects at these schools to get kids excited. So, I think part of it is just education.

We need to sort of remember that college is not the only path for students post-high school. I think the industry, too, has to do a better job of, I hate to say it, but getting on social media, like just hammering social media with, hey, you wanna make $100,000 two years after high school? Come be an electrician, come be a plumber. So, I don’t know, unfortunately, I don’t have the answer, but I do think there are opportunities to create these pathways with projects that are happening in school, or on school grounds. I just feel like that’s an obvious opportunity that somebody should go launch a business around.

Wes (25:50)

Without a doubt. And you’ve seen more of that, even manufacturing trends, things like that, getting into schools early, and maybe that’s part of the rise of the new generations being more open to it. But in recruiting, it’s crazy. You do see it. You see people who went to school and schooling’s great and did all this sort of stuff and, you know, where they’re making. And then you have somebody just a really, really skilled tradesperson and they’re making the same amount of money.

Owen (26:12)

Yep, with no debt.

Wes (26:13)

With zero debt and they’re they like it because you’re hardwired that way too. That’s the thing is you’re gonna be miserable just stuck in a corporate office environment and sitting at your desk all day. So, you find more fulfillment and all that, too.

Owen (26:27)

I agree. Huge opportunity. I mean, it’s just a massive opportunity. Yeah.

Wes (26:32)

So, thinking just about current things that are happening with just the rise of AI, AI seems like it’s all we hear about every day, the rise of AI, decline of some white-collar entry-level jobs, I think, because of that as well too. Tell me your take on that, and what role do you see for the trades in that future?

Owen (26:47)

Well, I think there’s going to be a huge, I mean, if I think there’s going to be an even bigger demand for skilled trades to build out all of this infrastructure that we need for AI. So, I think it’s really interesting because I think you already have a shortage. I think the tech companies are going to be able to pay a premium if they need to, to bring skilled trades to build out their data centers. I think those data centers are, in turn, going to increase electricity rates for everybody. And then you’re going to have the economics of solar be better than they ever have been, even without the tax credit. So, I think we’re about to start this cycle of shortage of skilled trades getting worse, electricity prices getting higher, and demand for solar increasing. And I mean, not just solar, like any energy efficiency or renewable energy technology.

So, I don’t know. I don’t think AI is going to take electricians’ jobs anytime soon. I think that’s going to be around for a while. But I do think we’re about to enter a very interesting cycle where there’s not enough labor to do the jobs that need to be done to help increase energy demand via AI.

Wes (27:52)

Yeah, no doubt. I agree completely with all of that. What’s another, just thinking about the clean energy industry, what’s one hard truth that they need to face head-on right now, just in your world that you’re thinking about?

Owen (28:04)

Colleges should get rid of all sustainability majors. That’s the biggest waste of time. My take on this is, it’s funny because I have a graduate degree in basically sustainability. It’s not called that, but it’s the same thing. I think there’s an opportunity for graduate degrees, but I think what colleges really should do is turn all of those majors into minors.

So kids that are focused on sustainability get the sustainability minor Yeah, but get the finance major or the marketing major or the computer science major and then couple it with sustainability because Sustainability degrees on their own are not worth much I would never hire someone with a sustainability major if they don’t do anything. They don’t know how to do anything.

Wes (28:50)

If anything, it shows that that person’s really passionate about it, the industry, but to that point, how much value do you get outside of that? I don’t know. You would know better than I.

 Yeah, I like that thought, though. Making it more of a minor still shows that you see that even with certifications and things like that. And we have hiring managers say that, like I don’t require the certification, but it’s nice to see that they have that, because that shows they are really passionate about this area. And they took it upon themselves to seek out more education in that.

Owen (29:20)

Yeah, I think the job opportunity within sustainability is going to exist for a long time. I think it’s going to get even more important. But I think you need to develop real skills, not just how to prepare an ESG report or how to complain about carbon emissions. yeah, you need to have the skills to solve something. And I just hope that becomes more of a pattern that we start to see.

Wes (29:47)

Yeah, and to your point, even like the financial side, how important that is. It’s so valuable, and those people are making really good money within the sector as well. Yeah. Great career.

Wes (29:58)

But no, I love hearing just your candid thoughts, but I do love that you stay optimistic. You’ve shared a lot of things there of like things are challenging. There are some bad things, but man, hope is on the horizon, feel good about where things are headed. Just even in the face of those real challenges. So, I’d like to just kind of look ahead, talk about what keeps you inspired, where you see Shine heading, and the legacy you hope to leave behind as well, too. And when all is said and done. So, despite all the challenges, and we know they’re new challenges as well, you said adoption is still at an all-time high. What data points or trends give you the most optimism? Give us an optimistic speech.

Owen (30:35)

Yeah, I mean, I think the last data point I saw for residential solar penetration in the US was like 3.4%. I think. I mean, that’s zero. You’re basically talking about zero. So, the opportunity to increase that number it’s the only upside. And I do think that there’s going to be a little bit of turbulence the next couple of years as we see sort of how this whole big bill shakes out with tax credits going away. But as we’ve discussed, energy prices are going nowhere but up. So, take away the tax credit, you know, increase electricity prices a couple of years in a row, and you’re right back to where you started.

And so, I think there’s a huge opportunity for that 3.4 % number to get to 10, to get to 20, to get to 30. And then the flip side is multifamily is even less than that. I have not seen a data point on what multifamily solar penetration is, but I bet it’s less than one. I bet it’s even less than like half a percent. So, we’re excited about the same thing, which is like, we’re at the very beginning of this massive transition, and certain administrations can try to stop it or slow it down, but like the numbers always win.

And the numbers will always win. And so, I just think we’re at the very beginning of this huge shift, and there’s gonna be a ton of job opportunities in the future. There are right now. And so, think people who are interested in it should stay interested in it.

Wes (32:07)

Even with all the headwinds and everything else, companies are still hiring. We’re still doing that as well too. So, I think there’s still a lot of hope and optimism. I think most people you talk to in the industry, as much as they are, again, headwinds, there’s still that level of optimism, which is great. And I think that’s needed.

Owen (32:22)

I agree with the headwind, but I think I think our industry generally Democrats. We’re just not as good at framing things as Republicans. I think we need to call these not headwinds but like annoyances. It’s just annoying that all these companies now have to like rejigger their numbers and figure out, it’s just annoying, and this happens all the time in the industry. It’s like, let’s just stop annoying the renewable energy industry and just let this thing hum, right?

Wes (32:49)

Yeah, and I think to your back to your point of making that like a financial case, making the business case, talking in ways like that, where really, no matter where you sit, on the scale, it’s something that you can agree with and go, I mean, it makes financial sense. It’s a good option. All right. You’re not pulling on my heartstrings about I feel this about the environment or feel this way or that way, but you are making a true business case, which, again, I think that’s an important piece of it.

How about you personally, how do you personally stay hopeful? Thinking about policy shifts, big, beautiful bill, all this other stuff, tariffs, and everything else. And it’s long been called the solar coaster that wasn’t invented this year; that’s been around for a long time. But how do you stay hopeful when things shift or when headlines look grim?

Owen (33:34)

I mean, like I’ve been an athlete my whole life. I played soccer in college. I think having that chip on your shoulder goes a long way. And to me, this most recent legislation just should put a chip on everybody’s shoulder to just prove them wrong. Take away the tax credits for solar. Continue to incentivize fossil fuels and just watch what happens over the next 10 years. Solar is going to crush fossil fuels. It doesn’t matter what you do with the tax credit; it’s still going to crush. And yeah, there’s going to be a little bit of turbulence, but over the long run, going to see adoption of renewables just crush fossil fuels. I think you’ve got to have the long-term vision, though, right? You can’t live in the next six months or next year or next two years. And it’s hard, but you have to have that long-term vision. And I think if you do, you can survive these like ups and downs in the near term.

Wes (34:23)

In any model you know, hockey sticks curve and all this sort of stuff. It’s never like a straight, perfect line, right? Like, there are dips along the way, it’s up and down, but is it trending in the right direction? And I would say this absolutely is, regardless of what.

Owen (34:29)

You can’t stop technology. You will not stop solar. You will not stop EVs. There’s nothing that anybody can do that’s going to take over.

Wes (34:44)

I agree. Thinking about another business leader, if they’re sitting in their seat in renewable energy and clean tech, maybe not as optimistic as you, they’re kind of down on the headlines and feeling bad. What’s some encouragement you would offer?

Owen (34:57)

Turn off the news 100%. Stop like the doom scrolling. I think just like talking to some people, and I don’t know, talk to your customers. Talk to customers about the most recent projects that you’ve implemented and what they’ve done to their budget. I don’t think that, regardless of whether you’re a CNN or you’re a Fox watcher, I don’t think headlines help anybody.

Wes (35:18)

I agree. That’s sound advice, and I’ve shared that exact same thing, and I think that’s important. And I’ve said this multiple times on the show. It’s like you see all these headlines, and then I’ve talked to real leaders in companies, and you hear a different story. And to your point, I love that. Go talk to some other people in the industry. Share what you’re going through. Share what you’re thinking. See what they think, and I think you’ll get a different perspective. So, I love that.

Tell us a bit more about Shine. So, what’s your long-term vision, five-year vision? What does it look like, and what are some other things that you wish people knew about Shine?

Owen (35:48)

Well, I think the biggest thing that I would wish for, specifically multifamily owners to know, is just that it’s possible to install solar on tenant meters anywhere in the country. I think that’s like our biggest educational push right now. You don’t need virtual net energy metering, which is like a utility-sponsored program. You don’t even need net metering, just by virtue of, usually, how much roof space there is relative to apartments and how much the apartments use.

And so, I think if a lot of people have evaluated solar in the past, he past could be the last year, the last 10 years. Like we just said, oh, we’ve looked at it in the past. It doesn’t work. It’s time to reevaluate. And just getting into this industry, I talk about this a lot on podcasts, but the real estate industry is so good at turning every square foot into an increased dollar in rent. They do it with changing carpet to LVP. They do it with changing one-tone paint to two-tone, adding dog parks, adding covered parking. They’re so good at optimizing for income, but they don’t think about what they can do on the roof. Just stops. So just look at your roof as it’s either income producing or it’s not, and figure out how to make that roof produce income.

Wes (37:00)

That’s awesome. Somebody listening that’s interested in that, what’s a good starting place? Like where should they go or what should they do?

Owen (37:06)

Just reach out to us, info@getshine.com, and check out our website. I mean, we do analysis all day long for free. Because again, it always starts with the numbers. So, people, everyone’s like, this sounds great, but what do the numbers actually look like? And the numbers are just heavily dependent on what the property itself looks like, what utility it’s located in, and what part of the country it’s in. It’s hard just to give a vague answer about what a project will look like.

So, get a no-cost analysis done, dig into the numbers. Like I said before, it may not be this particular project, but at least we’re kind of starting this educational momentum so that the industry is hopefully thinking about it for future acquisitions.

Wes (37:45)

Good stuff, and I’ll link some of that in the show notes as well too. People can go check out. I’ll ask this question. We talked a little bit about policy. maybe this is obvious, if you could influence one national policy today, what would it be and why?

Owen (37:57)

I think if we’re going to get rid of the incentives for renewables, let’s get rid of them for fossil fuels too. Let’s just create a level playing field and let capitalism take over.

Wes (38:07)

I love that one. Love that one. When you think about your legacy, so 20 years from now or when things are all said and done, what do you hope to have changed in the clean energy landscape? What do you hope to leave behind?

Owen (38:18)

I want to be known as the guy who helped multifamily figure out solar. That’s what I want my gravestone to say.

Wes (38:26)

I love it. It’s on recording. Any of your loved ones who listen to this? You got it. I love that. A few more questions as we wrap up, just to dig in a couple more things. So, thinking about your entrepreneurial journey, we talked a little bit about that and some early failures. I think that’s always a part of the story. What’s one maybe early mistake you made in that journey that taught you something you still carry with

Owen (38:29)

I didn’t know anything about sales. So, I came from this financial background where if the numbers make sense, the customer will do it. And that is not true. So, I think anybody who has an interest in entrepreneurship you either need to figure out how to sell or you need to partner with someone who needs to figure out how to sell. if one of the two co-founders is not like a salesperson, it’s gonna be hard for that company to succeed.

Wes (39:15)

A couple more things, too. Either in that journey, so as you’re coming up as an entrepreneur, growing, learning, failing, then succeeding, any piece of advice that you received during that time that really stuck with you or you hold as kind of a core?

Owen (39:29)

No advice personally, but I love listening to podcasts. I don’t read and it’s like an it’s like a faux pas to mention now in the business world, but I just I don’t have time for it, but I listen to podcasts all the time and I was listening to this one about the guy that started Boom, which is like a supersonic jet company and he had no background in aviation, which is wild to think about. One of the things that he said was just work on something that you’d be proud to fail at. Yeah, that’s a funny way to look at but I mean the reality is most businesses fail. So, mine might, everybody else’s might, unfortunately. You want to feel good about the time that you put in. So, you want it to be something that, you know, tell your kids about it, tell your friends about it. Maybe it didn’t work out, but at least I tried.

Wes (40:14)

Yeah, I love that. Final question, I’ll open up the floor. Anything you didn’t get to share, parting words of wisdom, advice, anything else you want to share with the audience.

Owen (40:23)

It’s just so important to stay optimistic and not get trapped in the headlines. Like, it’s just not helpful for our industry.

Wes (40:31)

No, I agree. You’ve got to have that thread of optimism. And again, I think if you really do take a moment and look at it and look at where it’s headed and you look at just the past years and where things have gone, it’s inevitable. It’s like it’s going forward. This is going to happen regardless of what’s going on out there. So sometimes a matter of timing, and you take some bumps in the road or annoyances, as you said. But ultimately, it’s trending ahead there. So, stay hopeful, stay positive.

Owen (40:57)

Yeah.

Wes (40:58)

Yeah, great words to end on. So, with that, we’ll conclude today’s episode of Green Giants. Huge thank you to you, Owen, for sharing your insights, and I love your just candid no-nonsense approach to accelerating clean energy deployment. It was a fun conversation.

So, if you enjoyed the conversation, please be sure to follow the show, leave us a review. It really helps other listeners discover these stories. You can learn more about Shine and Owen’s work. I’ll link in the show notes as well. And then outside of that, thanks for listening, thanks for tuning in, and we will see you soon.