Green Giants – Episode 70

Jorge (01:33)

I really like the definition and actually, in preparation for the podcast, we had a brief discussion about it. If you think about where we are moving in terms of the next generation of devices, there continues to be this pervasive need for higher mobility, higher energy freedom. The devices are going to require, if you think about AI becoming more, moving from at your fingertips to literally being in your face, to name one application of many, there is going to be

A need for higher energy density, safer technology. And we’ve been innovating on the device side quite well, but we haven’t really innovated on the battery side and we haven’t been able to keep up.

So, we’re now in a world where there’s an AC plug in between every airplane seat on earth, and you have these really nice, good-looking devices and everybody’s tethered. And you’re really denying the technology, the true application that it deserves. And so, I really bonded with that context of the bottleneck and it is something that at ION, we have taken the challenge and we are well on our way to solving.

Todd Crescenzo (02:33)

Yeah, maybe just further building on that and some of the examples like the plane, right? One of the reasons we shut off this device at 25,000 feet is not because of 5G interference. It’s really the safety and efficacy of the batteries that are in the devices. As we think about computing and the ever-expanding need for higher and more sophisticated compute.

Behind that are obviously semiconductors and chips, and there are different reasons that you need certain chips, and then batteries. And so, as we sort of make these devices more powerful, the real estate inside them becomes important. And chips and batteries are a key piece of that. So again, building on the bottleneck aspect, if you have a platform technology, if you have a flexible form factor technology, it’s a really value-add to sort of what I would say is the kind of behind-the-meter equivalent at the device level.

As we think about grid energy, there’s in front of the meter, that’s where the generation is produced. And then behind the meter, sort of at the house level, we think of devices and whether that’s maybe glasses or a phone is really behind that meter. And the needs for the compute and the energy storage are important.

So, in ION’s case, the ability to be a safer technology, have a different form factor, but also be flexible to the different chemistries they can work with, really give the device companies, and specifically consumer electronics, we’ll talk about other markets, a lot of opportunity to integrate the technology.

Wes Ashworth (04:03)

Yeah, sure. It’s really good context and just sets the stage for what we’re going to get into. But kind of further into that, too, Todd, I’m curious, just from your investor lens, when you’re looking at ION, what told you it wasn’t just another solid-state promise and it was something that you believed in?

Todd Crescenzo (04:20)

Yeah, it’s great. And we’ve been investors in ION now for going on four years. So, as we think about our phases of our process from diligence to putting the capital together and deploying it under whatever form factor we did in the case of four years ago, it was a series A, and then follow-on investing that we’ve done. The lens that you look through in terms of what makes ION different changes.

So, in your diligence phase, it’s how ION is differentiated relative to competitors and we thought about competitors it was obviously other solid-state companies, but then other competing technologies like incumbent technologies. What can lithium-ion do that Ion can do better, right? And what market problem is Ion solving?

So that’s on the front end. And then as we get into the investment, you make the investment, you’ve kind of checked all those boxes and what you see is, or what we saw then was Ion’s differentiated technology around, kind of what we started to scratch the surface on earlier, which is its unique approach to being cathode agnostic based on its ceramic electrolyte separator. That is the key differentiator that allows it to do really two critical pieces. And Jorge mentioned it earlier, it’s like energy freedom, but it’s being safer and still having the performance attributes that are the same or better. You can’t be any worse than an incumbent technology.

And then the flexibility around form factor that really gives what we saw early is a platform technology. And what we mean by platform technology is the ability to sort of address markets horizontally. So, consumer electronics, aerospace to defense, EV. Those are different markets, energy storage, but also vertically, meaning we could do the full cell, ION could do the full cell, but it also has a ceramic anode capability that could be an enabling technology to other chemistries. And Jorge will go a little more into that, but that’s really what excited us on the front end. And then as you make the investment, just helping the team execute along that and continuing to show how we are differentiated relative to incumbent technologies and other direct competitors.

Wes Ashworth (06:27)

Yeah, it’s good stuff, and Jorge, from your perspective, what makes Cornerstone different from other false starts that came before?

Jorge (06:34)

Yeah, great question. One of the things that characterizes the Cornerstone program is that it is, by virtue of the testament and the follow-up that we have from the customers who have received it, it is the first of its kind in a segment like consumer electronics. And what you find is, at the core of the program, we realized that we’re a very different company when it comes to solving this problem. If you look at the alternatives that are in the solid state, you will typically see a single cell. I mean, you see, this is the classic image of a CEO holding what I call the big fish cell. It’s this behemoth that’s going to go into the EVs. It’s like, here it is. Here is the cell that is able to perform and deliver. Here’s how many cycles, et cetera.

Ion doesn’t need that because it is an enabling technology that actually enhances even solid-state technologies. So, we actually see this anode innovation that Todd was referring to as being complementary to all of those. And so, what the Cornerstone program has been is that it’s been the first time that consumer electronics companies have received not one hero cell, but dozens of prototype cells that have behaved consistently according to what we have told them it would do. Hey, here’s a cell that is not going to swell. Here’s a cell that’s going to give you a very specific cycle time.

It was really more to, hey, here is proof that the technology works. Now, let’s work together and identify the specific applications in your universe that the battery can go into. And that is a decisively different approach. Everybody right now designs around the battery’s limitations. For the very first time, you can design new devices with the battery in mind. And we’re very excited about the opportunities that has unlocked.

Wes Ashworth (08:10)

Yeah, that’s good stuff. And to kind of continue to unpack some of the technical breakthroughs and I’ll admit, I’m not an engineer by trade, so we can keep it in layman’s terms and everybody can understand. But can you explain a little bit more of that, just cathode agnostic design, no swelling for those that maybe aren’t battery experts, like what does it actually mean and what is the product doing?

Jorge (08:40)

Absolutely. So, the swelling of batteries is something that is both pervasive in existing lithium batteries. I’m sure everybody has had to turn in their laptop at least once because the keyboard is kind of warping, and that’s because the battery inside is, as it degrades, there is this kind of basically inflates. And then in the space of solid state in particular, some of the approaches require you to compress the cell in order for those solid elements inside the battery to actually work.

In other instances, a nodeless batteries, for example, there is what the industry calls a breathing problem. So, when you charge the battery, there’s this breathing so the battery inflates upon charge and it deflates. So, this creates a design challenge, and you basically need to design around these battery limitations at the module and at the pack level. What our technology does is a bilayer ceramic. You can think of it as a sponge.

And so, what happens is that the sponge creates a fixed geometry, a fixed space where the lithium plates as lithium metals, all of the lithium in our technology is in the cathode. And so, what it does is when the battery charges, it plates, but it has a defined space where that lithium metal to plate into. And then when the battery discharges, it goes back to the cathode. And so that geometric definition is what allows basically solving for the breathing problem by incorporating it at the micron level in our ceramic bilayer. And that’s what’s unique in the approach to solving that problem.

Wes Ashworth (10:05)

Yeah, no, it’s really cool. And Todd, just from the investment side of this equation, when you’re hearing that, why does all that matter for scalability?

Todd Crescenzo (10:12)

Yeah, it gets to what we were chatting about earlier in terms of different market applications and really having the flexibility to design to the needs of the market. Sort of further to Jorge’s point in the past, I think a lot of innovative companies around battery technologies have said to their end markets that they’re targeting, here’s a solution. So, you’re being prescriptive versus being able to get a feedback loop from the market and say, OK, based on our core competencies, based on our differentiated technology. How can we work with you across multiple devices, multiple end-market needs?

Again, back to where we started, which is a totally ever-changing game in terms of compute and energy needs at the device level. And I’m sure we’ll talk about it at some point, why we’re hyper-focused on the consumer electronics space. And as we think about some of the consumer electronics folks, they are everything from an AirPod in your ear to grid-scale needs. So, the entire platform of what Ion can address over its commercial and technical roadmap journey aligns very well with all the companies and the Magnificent 7 that we can think about.

Wes Ashworth (11:16)

Yeah, it’s good stuff. By the way, I love this, having the investor side of the equation and the guy in the company running the company. This is great. So, this might be a new format. But now that we’ve established what makes Ion’s technology real and differentiated, I want to talk about where it’s actually being applied. So, you segued into that perfectly and why Ion chose to start in the markets that it did.

So, I’ll start with Jorge. Why is consumer electronics the ideal first proving ground for Ion’s technology?

Jorge (11:42)

Yeah, if you think there are two lessons there. The first one is if you think about the product and the breadth of products that a consumer electronics company commercializes, it’s anything from a wearable all the way to a computer, all the way to AI servers, and very specific applications. And so, what it allows us to do is it’s a plethora of different form factors and applications. And that’s really critical because you’re really trying to identify those platforms that are high value in use, and that are highly customizable so that you can start commercializing within those niche applications, work your way towards EVs, because we all know EV is cost-driven.

And by the time you get there, it’s a little bit like jumping into the Olympics. From the beginning, you want to kind of work your way up there. You want to work that muscle to get up there. So, it allows it to be done in a decisively profitable way because, from a dollar per kilowatt hour, the willingness to pay for these types of devices is a lot higher than, say, in an EV application. The other thing is that it is a tried and tested method. So, if you look back, the lithium battery wasn’t born in a car. The lithium battery was born in the Sony camcorder more than 25 years ago.

And that was consumer electronics. In fact, it created an entirely different category. There’s a video from our Founder, Professor Eric Wachsman, which got me super hooked when I was interviewing for the job, where he describes that. He said the segment didn’t exist. It was the battery that enabled the service. And so, we’re at the cusp of that kind of next generation of devices, if you think about history repeating itself. And we’ve gotten so much better at it, though, that it’s not going to take 20 years for the technology to get to EVs.

And the last thing that I’ll leave you with is these are not my words. These are the words from the EV customers that we’ve had the conversation with. They’ve said, we’ve been investing in next-generation battery technologies for a very long time, throwing money at it, partnering with all these different companies and doing the research ourselves. And this idea of starting with consumer electronics just naturally de-risks the technology for us. Because by the time it comes to the vehicle, it’s been around, the kinks have been worked out, and by the way, you’ve built economies of scale. So now you hit the sweet spot of what it needs to be for EV adoption.

Wes Ashworth (13:39)

Yeah, that’s super cool. And I’ll find that video and try to link it in the show notes for anybody who wants to check it out. Taking one example of this. So smart glasses, as an example, we’re seeing pop up, you know, getting more popular, obviously. Jorge, what does your tech enable for that category specifically?

Jorge (14:06)

If you think about it, again, go back to that concept of a breathing cell. What you need to do is, in an application that is now quite literally on your face, in the design of the product, you need to allow the space for that to breathe. Otherwise, quite literally, these smart glasses will fall apart because when the cell swells, it’s going to pop up. Some weird stuff is going to happen that you really don’t want.

And so, the easiest solution is you design the space for it. You say, OK, well, we’re going to leave a little bit of space so that the cell can breathe and then that’s no problem. But if you think about that space, that’s precious space. You can put additional active material in the battery in that space. And all of a sudden, you don’t have to charge your smart glasses halfway through the flight. You can actually get to the other side, not to mention the safety aspect of it. These things are very close to your eyes. And at the end of the day, it is something that you want it to be safer. So that’s one example of how the technology enables it.

Todd Crescenzo (15:01)

Jorge’s glasses are not smart glasses, other than he’s so smart that they’re smart. He’s one of the smartest guys I’ve ever met. But he is not wearing the product right now.

Wes Ashworth (15:12)

Yeah, absolutely. Taking this out a little further, beyond consumer electronics, where else are you seeing early traction, whether it’s aerospace, defense? What does that look like?

Jorge (15:23)

Aerospace and defense are a very close second. There are applications there that, items like comfortable wearable batteries, things that are worn actually in the field. The drone sector is one that’s very, very interesting as well, because the performance characteristics that are needed for a battery in that specific application are squarely within what our battery can achieve. It is typically, by close in nature, within a year or two of adoption in consumer electronics.

The feedback from there is, look, we’re kind of a step above in terms of the qualification that the technology requires to be adopted. And that makes all the sense in the world. So, it’s basically proven that it works in consumer electronics and then take it to the next level for it to be applicable for these types of applications. They are, again, what the Cornerstone program has allowed us to do is to have our prototypes across the board with these customers. We are the only solid-state company that I know of.

And I’ve done my homework. I wouldn’t say that it’s 100%, but I certainly have not come across another solid-state battery company that has active prototypes, that’s a plural, active sample cells, in consumer electronics, aerospace and defense, and EVs at the same time. For a company that’s six years old to have prototypes cycling at these customers across these very broad segments is huge.

We launched Cornerstone, we announced it in Chicago three weeks ago, but the first cell shipped out of the warehouse in April. So, if you think about the traction, here we are three, four months later, and we’re already having the next discussions around what the next prototypes are going to look like and how we’re going to implement this at scale, you can tell that we’re onto something. And we’re quite excited about just the level of traction that the program has gotten in a very few months.

Wes Ashworth (16:49)

Yeah, incredibly exciting fun to see that fast growth and how quickly it’s all coming together. Todd, again, from the investor perspective, when you look at ION’s roadmap, how do you balance those near-term wins and consumer markets with that longer-term pull of sectors like EVs and others?

Todd Crescenzo (17:23)

I think it’s being flexible along the way and the market informing us if and when we need to pivot as an enterprise. So, if we sort of go back to when Clear Creek initially invested almost four years ago as a Series A, frankly, the initial roadmap was a little more traditional. We wanted to really kind of scale manufacturing. It was capital-intensive.

But along the way, at the board level and the investor level and with the help of the executive leadership team. We saw a way to pivot the business model to be a little more capital-light and move faster into other markets. And so, I think it’s just about being nimble and taking the data along the way and pivoting in such that what is the highest and best use of everyone’s resources, time, capital, labor, et cetera, to really get to market.

Building on what Jorge said, we could have focused on EV because a lot of folks think those are very large markets and obviously, they are. If we think about electrifying automotives in general, from passenger cars to heavy industry, these are really, really large markets. And so, if we think about TAMs, people get excited about that. But then there’s a reality of execution and the folks like Jorge and the team that are doing the work day to day, where you have to listen and understand what the market is saying to pivot. Because you could spend seven years to get to a prototyping phase with an EV, and in the interim, you’ve missed something you could have done in one or two years with the consumer electronics.

So, it’s about being flexible, being informed by the market, and I think having the right team, both upstream at the board level, downstream to the operating executive leadership team, and having alignment of interest and pivot.

Wes Ashworth (19:06)

Yeah. And kind of getting into it, I want to segway a little bit into just the commercialization journey and taking it from, of course, it’s one thing to imagine applications, you’ve actually made them happen and are making them possible. So, how have you gone from lab innovation to a robotic pilot line? That’s kind of what I want to get into and talk about, and also understanding what milestones still lie ahead.

So, Jorge, how did Ion leverage existing lithium-ion infrastructure? And you touched on that briefly earlier, but just to accelerate the move from lab to robotic pilot line?

Jorge (19:37)

Yeah, it’s one of the things that, and please consider this an open invitation. I know that’s not necessarily part of the podcast, but I would love to show you. I try my best to speak to it. What you see at ION, and this is a testament from our customers as well. When you walk through our facility, you’re able to understand really three things. The first is what makes the technology unique. The second is what makes the people unique, because you can’t really have the technology without the people and the way they interact. And the third thing is we’re able to see how this is going to work when it becomes real for our application.

So, we believe that is core to what the technology does. We have to prove that it works. And so, you walk to the facility. First of all, the way it’s laid out, I like it. There’s actually a LinkedIn post that the team just put out there like a week ago. And it’s a picture of a floor tile. And at one point, I guess it finally stuck because I would stand at the same floor tile and say, this is my favorite, favorite place in all of Ion. Because from here you can see our LLZO powder being made over there, how it mixes seamlessly with both our pilot plant and the R&D lab.

You can see the people in all the teams from the same place. That allows for that rapid innovation, that closed product design cycle that sounds kind of cool in a business case, but when you see it in reality, it’s not something that’s easy to implement and it’s pretty cool. Every time I do the tour, I stand in the same tile.

And so, what we wanted to prove with the pilot line. First of all, we wanted to have the capability. But secondly, wanted to say, the innovation is in the end. We do not need to redesign the battery for our technology to work. In fact, part of what’s been so successful with Cornerstone is that, for those customers, EVs in particular, they’ve been very open with us. They say, we love what you’re doing. I’ve been at it for five years. I’ve been investing millions of dollars in my own cell, but it still swells. Would it be possible for you to send us your anode and see, absolutely.

Again, it’s a technology enabler. We don’t view the self. We don’t want to displace. We want to enhance. It’s almost like a tide that lifts all boats. So, you need to see it. You need to be able to see the anode go into a line and have this standard pouch assembly equipment, because it’s nothing new. It’s all open. You can walk in and you can see it, because everybody has their version of it, and see how seamless it integrates into the gigafactories that are already producing batteries out there. And that is a very key concept because what we want to avoid is to be a capital-intensive approach to solving this problem, because we’ve seen time and time again that that is a very difficult path, and it is needed when you’re reinventing the battery around your technology. You have to recreate the wheel, right?

Here’s an opportunity for the very first time for a technology that can leapfrog lithium-ion by enhancing it and not displacing it, and that’s what you’re able to see when you walk the halls of our Beltsville facility.

Todd Crescenzo (22:37)

Wes, maybe just tying this a little bit to something we talked about earlier in terms of bottlenecks and semiconductor analogs. As we think about where the innovation is in the semiconductor space, and really what the breakthrough was, it was around the design, the architecture, and the compute. It wasn’t in the manufacturing.

So, we think about what kind of ecosystem has spawned over the last 30, 40 years. And there’s a great book by a guy by the name of Chris Miller called Chip Wars. You see that there’s a foundry that developed the innovations of companies like Intel, NVIDIA, and AMD along the way. And so, we think Ion is that analog to the battery industry, right? It’s Ion inside, not just Intel inside. It’s Ion inside that can be integrated into wherever the upstream manufacturers are, both in geography and or what their end product market is. And then I think that’s one of the key differentiators.

That is the essence of enabling technology, of platform technology, and sort of investor speak, if you will.

Wes Ashworth (23:36)

It’s absolutely incredible. And just kind of hearing it, you obviously instantly kind of light up with the, wow, the scalability of it all and how much sense it all makes and kind of like, wow, it’s genius. Simple and genius. Not simple from an engineering perspective, but in idea.

So, thinking about the future, you mentioned samples already out in the hands of partners. We talked a little bit about that. Anything you want to expand on, feel free to, but Jorge, what’s still ahead before we see just full-scale adoption of this type of technology?

Jorge (24:08)

It’s like you said, it’s very exciting to start to see samples in the hands of customers and see them cycle and see their data be laser-focused on where it needs to be. What comes next is really the enablement of the flexibility that the technology offers. So, what comes next is having these discussions with customers around the really exciting part, the identification of the application, the first application.

So, now that the sample cell has been in their hands and they know that it works. Now comes the integrating it into something that’s real. What comes next is really, because again, remember, we’re not focused on a technology roadmap that is centered around what Greg, our RCTO, likes to call a hero cell, right? That’s not what we’re doing.

And so, what that requires is a very deep, honest conversation with partners or with the customer in particular around where the battery is going. So, because we want to purposefully innovate, you don’t want to over-engineer the cell for the application. You want to begin with the end in mind. Where’s it going? Is it a smart line? Is it a cell phone? Is it an AI server-type application? Where’s it going? And then you have a focused, dedicated commercialization effort for that. And that is what we’re laser-focused on right now.

The other thing is, we have embarked on this with the support of the board to make a significant investment in our company. And that is to basically unlock the final piece in our manufacturing process. This is something that we’ve been researching for the last two years. And it required an enhancement of one of the processes in developing the ceramic. And so that is front and center. I joked with the team that it would be great to turn it on for my birthday, which is in April. But anyway, sometime in Q2, that is kind of what we’re focused on. That is really going to bring to life and accelerate our throughput tremendously. Those are just a couple of what we have in store for 2026 and beyond.

Wes Ashworth (26:00)

Yeah, incredible stuff. And Todd, so when a company like ION hits those milestones and continues to hit them, how do you tell the difference between just genuine progress and hype? Like, talk us through from the investor lens and how you view that progress.

Todd Crescenzo (26:13)

It’s a good question. I think at that point, there’s no difference between being an investor and an operator. I mean, it’s just you’re hitting those milestones and you’re getting to critical mass and you have those check-ins along the way. I think it’s just about alignment on the front end of what the tech and commercial roadmaps are. Having trust and confidence in your executive team, right?

At the board level, we have a tremendous amount of trust and confidence in Jorge and the team to execute. And then it’s about communication right up and downstream of where the executive team sits. Because it’s not just important to report up to the board. It’s about, and Jorge does an incredible job of this with the rest of his executive team, how that matriculates to the rest of the organization. In terms of a culture, in terms of clear goals.

When they’re reached, what does that mean, what does that enable for sort of the next goal? You always wanna be thinking two or three steps ahead. And then from a board perspective, at each of those gates or milestones as you go through them, there may be more or less needs that the executive team needs from the board. And we’re there to be an ecosystem partner. Yes, provide capital, but also, how can we be of help?

They’re doing the really hard work day to day as the operators, but we are there to support them and provide additional connectivity, whether that’s other investors, whether that’s commercial partners, whether that’s being thoughtful and creative around how you do partner at that commercial level. There are lots of ways. It could just be a PO, it could be a joint development agreement. There are IP sensitivities we need to be thoughtful of. So, really just being a resource to Jorge and the team as you go through those gates is an important piece.

Wes Ashworth (27:49)

Yeah, and kind of looking at this further and thinking about Ion. There are a few industries that are as noisy as batteries. Every year, there’s talk about, Holy Grail or the Silver Bullet. And I want to cut through some of those misconceptions and set the record straight. So, Jorge, the industry often talks about a Holy Grail battery. You hear it and see it, the hype. Maybe, why do you argue that there may not be a Silver Bullet?

Jorge (28:09)

Yeah, it’s interesting. I kind of hinted at it as well, the hero cell, right? And look, what the battery space has taught us is that there is ample space for flexibility. If you have a technology that is flexible, the world is your oyster. If you have a technology that requires a very specific set of parameters, materials, and a combination to make it work, there will be space for sure, because there’s always an application out there for that.

But it is from a purpose perspective. What gets me excited every morning is the ability to change the industry, the ability to bring forward a technology that really has the potential of turning every gigafactory on earth into a solid-state battery, a solid-state battery that is safer, a solid-state battery that has twice the energy density and that does not swell. And so, I’m pretty excited. And it’s interesting because it is going to be a series of silent, powerful victories in decisively specific applications that are going to build the momentum.

It’s not going to be, log in to the podcast or to our newsfeed in two weeks, we have the cell. It’s not. And that creates just a tremendous amount of passion behind what we do, because we know that what we’re doing is enabling everybody’s batteries to be better. And there’s just a tremendous connection to that purpose as we move forward. And that’s one of the reasons why this technology is at the forefront of what batteries are going to unlock in the future.

Todd Crescenzo (29:36)

Said differently, Ion is the holy grail. But I think in all seriousness, the holy grail discussion, at least that I’ve seen in sort of particularly media, simplifies it. At the end of the day, is there really one holy grail of energy generation as we think about different market needs, different times, and so will there be one holy grail technology, chemistry? The likely answer is no, but that’s also what makes Ion so brilliant in that it can plug and play with these different chemistries and chemistries and technologies and the battery space tends to get intertwined. But I think we just need to widen the aperture to what the base load needs? What are the mid-load needs? What are the peak needs, in the device level, all the way up to the grid, frankly?

Wes Ashworth (30:24)

Yeah, and can you clarify that a little, because you’re right, technology and chemistry often get sort of mixed together and used interchangeably.

Todd Crescenzo (30:31)

I think a lot of people talk about battery technology too broadly, and it’s like okay, but what is driving you’re differentiating chemistry? Is it LFP as an NMC, or is it straight lithium-ion? Is it in the anode is it the cathode active material? There are a lot of aspects that people just lump as technology and I think we could get comfortable. There are different chemistry slash technologies that are applicable to various end markets, depending on what those markets’ needs are.

So, that’s my perspective on the intersection between quote-unquote chemistries and quote-unquote technologies.

Wes Ashworth (31:05)

Jorge, anything to add there?

Jorge (31:06)

Yeah, I think it’s, get excited by the optionality that the technology enables. So, it is not, it is a space where there’s, yes, there are showstoppers, but there’s just so much value when you are able to combine materials, science for both specific applications and broad industry applications. And so, I view the technologies as decisively complementary, both from a chemistry perspective, and that’s why the model that we’re using to commercialize makes a whole lot of sense because you need to view yourself as an enabler and as a partner, not as a competitor that’s there to this place.

And I think that’s what makes Ion unique, right? We don’t view ourselves as competing with anyone. We view ourselves as enabling everyone. And we’re humble, and we recognize that our solution for a specific application may take longer to implement than a cell that swells. That’s perfectly fine. For that application, if the cost makes sense, if the supply chains are already set, we’re not here to try to be all things to all people or all applications. But we certainly don’t want to shy away from the opportunity to make those technologies better. And that’s what makes the approach unique.

Wes Ashworth (32:18)

Yeah, I love that so much. And kind of going back to something you, kind of both shared, I think the people I trust the most in the industry, it’s an and, not an or. We’re talking about all these different solutions and how it all comes together and how it all, there are different pieces of the puzzle, right? And in different applications, certain things are going to matter more. Certain things are going to be a little more of a winner here, but not as great here. And then, as you said, just these complementary types of technologies and companies and all this sort of stuff. That’s really cool to see and kind of see this industry really come together.

I’ll ask a kind of an open question. You can both chime in here. Single biggest misconception you wish you could clear up about solid state batteries, and I’ll let you do it right here.

Todd Crescenzo (32:57)

Jorge’s gotta answer that first.

Jorge (32:59)

It’s interesting. I’ve been at this for some time. and I think there are terms of solid-state battery, right? What is a solid-state battery? And there are all sorts of flavors. In fact, I want to say it was probably four years ago. Somebody in the audience can recall when this was, I want to say it was one of the advanced automotive battery conferences, where it was actually the industry people that were there, and we all made light of it.

Because it was like, what is A-S-S-B, its A-S-S-B, all solid-state or almost solid-state battery? And so, I think the biggest misnomer is that solid state, what does that mean? Where there is all the way to the right, where you’ll have all solid elements inside the cell. And there are all these different flavors of different combinations of electrolyte, cathode, and anode material that would be described as a solid-state battery.

So, the misconception is, get curious about the details, because it’s fascinating. When you understand, okay, is it a solid-state battery? There’s it can be associated with a solid-state battery because it’s ceramic. But there are all these different nuances that make it unique. In my view, don’t let the misconception allow, so if it’s not solid, it’s not worth pursuing. The technology is so elegant that it allows you to incorporate different aspects of physics and materials into it. Don’t expect all solid-state batteries to be all solid state. But expect them all to deliver on the promise of higher energy density, safety, and, in our case, no swelling.

So, don’t think that if you see a company out there that says it’s a solid-state battery, don’t expect and don’t judge for it not to be completely solid, because it is a term that is a generalization in the industry. It really doesn’t say anything about the value of the technology. It’s just a term that was adopted. And so, get curious about the details, because that is where the opportunity for value creation is.

Wes Ashworth (34:43)

Yeah, that’s good. Get curious about the details. Good rule to live by right there.

Todd Crescenzo (34:47)

Said differently, not all solid state is the same. I think something to break down the barrier on is that as people hear solid state, they think one dimensionally, and there are a lot of dimensions to Jorge’s point. I think one thing that’s fascinating about Jorge’s background is in his prior role, where he sat in the value chain, being able to see all those different technologies, I think, is a really key piece to discerning your point, like what barriers do you want to break down around solid state, but also why you came to ION? I think that’s pretty powerful.

Wes Ashworth (35:23)

Yeah, no, it’s good, good stuff. So, we’ve covered the breakthrough, the applications, commercialization journey. I want to in kind of our last section, just by looking forward to what success looks like and what advice you’d offer to the next wave of innovators and investors as well. So, Jorge, when you look ahead three to five years, maybe it’s longer than that. What does success look like for ION in the solid-state race?

Jorge (35:46)

Adoption, unequivocal technology adoption. The fact that we have a line of sight to that gives me goosebumps. That is really what success looks like. The fact that we’re partnering already at this early stage with companies that are excited about the technology, that see something unique in the technology, it’s a promise we can make that we know we can keep. And that’s really the exciting aspect of it.

I think from a business perspective and also from a technology perspective, that is a really good goal to shoot for. But yes, stay tuned. The next few years are going to be pretty exciting.

Wes Ashworth (36:20)

Yeah, any bold predictions if you look out even further, 20, 30 years, and you see where Ion has come and what has happened, what’s evolved, the adoption and everything else. What’s that end vision for you? Is there a mountaintop moment where you’re like, we fully made it, and we’re there?

Jorge (36:42)

I have this vision of one of my kids looking at me on the plane when they say, if your phone falls into the seat, don’t move it or don’t adjust it. I have this vision of us taking a family trip. It was like, Daddy, we don’t need to do that. Right? No, we don’t. That’s to me what makes it, what makes it real, because I talk to my family and talk about batteries, probably way too much. And my kids get super excited about the technology, probably way too much. But that to me is being able to realize that you’ve made a change that society has welcomed and that you’ve solved the problem.

Again, it’s the silent, powerful victories. It’s not in the newscast. Nobody’s going to be in the news can say this is the first plane that allows phones not to be turned off. No, it’s not going to be. But for the people who are going to witness that moment, are you kidding me? I mean, the landscape has changed forever.

Because they can now, they now believe that the technology is there, they can hold it in their hands, and they’re realizing the value right then and there. And to me, that’s a pretty powerful thing to shoot for.

Todd Crescenzo (37:46)

Mic drops it right there. But I think that’s the adoption, right?

And I think back to the mountaintop moment, in the fog of war, as you’re going through this, it’s never clear that moment. To use Jorge’s line, it’s a bunch of incremental steps that compound over time. And you don’t ever get the chance to sit at that mountaintop and look out because you’re just continuously executing. But you get these moments of feedback. And it is about adoption. And it’s everything from looking at the top line of revenue to the kids saying, wow, this is an incredibly powerful technology that gives us freedoms we didn’t have before. That’s the essence of innovation.

So, music to my ears is that an investor and at the board level that adoption is key. In adoption, we never want to lose sight of innovation as well. We had to continuously innovate. And I think that’s something if you look to like at Intel and Intel inside or an Ion inside, that’s the way you get 20, 30-year adoption, not just a three to five-year adoption. And so that’s pretty exciting and powerful as we sort of look out over at the horizon, and we have a great team to be able to do that.

Wes Ashworth (38:52)

Yeah, absolutely. And I’ll let each of you chime in here. So, what advice would you give to innovators and investors just in general, just maybe just in the space, up-and-comers haven’t maybe gotten to the level you are at. What advice would you offer them?

Todd Crescenzo (39:05)

I would say never stop innovating, but be super focused on getting to market with that Gen 1 product, then go back to innovating, but never get stuck in over-engineering anything. Always have that virtual cycle of market feedback innovation with execution being in the middle.

Jorge (39:26)

Yeah, there’s a presentation that I heard recently from, I’ll go ahead and quote him because I thought he did a really good job. Dr. Halle Cheeseman from RPE at the Chicago conference, which really crystallized. And we actually got the opportunity to spend some time together afterwards. And I said, you’ve identified it perfectly. And he looked at me and said, this is what you’re doing. I’m paraphrasing. “Lean into your key differentiator and hustle to get your MVP in the hands of the customer.” Again, you want to lean into what makes you unique, but you have to put it in the hands to build on what Todd has said. Put it in the hands of the customer and then accelerate that cycle. But I really liked the way he captured it because it is not; it’s a lot of times you let perfection be the enemy of good, as the saying goes. And the true nature of this is you don’t know what good is until your customer has the product in their hands.

You have to accelerate that learning cycle. Again, that’s what I would leave it. And also, something that was addressed before, be flexible. Use your board as a sounding board for advice, understanding, because the road is not linear, especially in this industry. It is decisively not linear. And so, you need to have just a group of thought partners. There will be ambiguity, but you need to build on that trust and recognize that the one thing you can’t do is remain idle and not make decisions.

So, what you want is to create that space where you debate, you come up with decisions that are complete, and you know you have the support to continue to execute. And that is certainly what I have felt since starting at Ion.

Wes Ashworth (41:12)

Yeah, it’s good stuff and a great, great way to just wrap it up and end there. So, Jorge, Todd, thank you so much for joining us today. The conversation has been a masterclass in what happens when deep innovation meets long-term engaged investment.

To our listeners, as always, thank you for listening. If you found this conversation valuable, please subscribe, rate, and share Green Giants with others who care about the future of renewable energy. Check the show notes, and with that, we will see you soon.