Green Giants – Episode 73

Brian DeBruine (01:25)

Well, actually, I retired because I could afford to. I had a 36-year career with Honeywell and I had a pension and social security and a 401k. So, I decided to take early retirement in 2016. But my work with Honeywell was not in hydrogen; it was really in electronics. And specifically, cockpit video displays and graphics processors for military aircraft. I’ve got designs that are flying on the F-16 and the F-15 and the F-117 aircraft.

But like a lot of engineers, I take an interest in science and technology outside of my field. And one day back, way back in 2006, I ran across a news item about the hydrogen work that was being done by Daniel Nocera at MIT. This article describes how he and his team developed a much more efficient catalyst to split water into hydrogen and oxygen using electricity. Electrolysis, we’re all familiar with that.

And although I didn’t hear angels sing, this was literally an epiphany for me. I realized right then and there what this meant for the decarbonization of transportation. How could it be practical to make hydrogen by splitting water with electricity? And at the time, I honestly thought that my next car would be a fuel cell vehicle. Well, that was 20 years ago and I’m still waiting, but now I’m trying to do something about it.

Wes Ashworth (02:46)

Yeah, I love that so much and just how that all came to be. And to that, I mean, most people when they retire, they do anything but start nonprofits and do what you’re doing. It’s incredible work that you’re doing. What lit the fire specifically to create the Colorado Hydrogen Network? What was the need you saw, or why did it need to happen?

Brian DeBruine (03:04)

Well, like most of us, I’m painfully aware of the climate crisis. The atmospheric CO2 is now at 423 parts per million, which is almost double the average over the last 800,000 years. And right now, there’s enough CO2 in the atmosphere to raise the global temperature by about 16 degrees or about 29 degrees Fahrenheit if we don’t do anything about it. Now, if this temperature rise causes crops to fail, really, if you think about it, that could spell a collapse of society.

Another thing is that the Arctic ice cap is melting, and this freshwater is diluting the salinity of the Atlantic. And the Gulf Stream in the Atlantic relies on the balance of saline and freshwater to keep it going. And as most of the listeners probably know, the Gulf Stream is what keeps Europe much warmer than it would be based on its latitude. Now just read recently that the University of Utrecht in the Netherlands estimates that if the Gulf Stream slows as significantly as they expect it to, Scotland would actually be below freezing half the year and Western Norway could drop by 23 degrees C or 40 degrees Fahrenheit. So obviously, this would have a big impact on the European crops.

So anyway, I say all that to say that it’s obvious to me that the world has got to stop all greenhouse gas emissions. Now we can do that with renewable energy, of course, things that are obvious like wind and solar, but that everybody’s heard about. There are also other things like geothermal heat, which unlike wind and solar, is continuous and that heat can be used to create steam to turn turbines and generators. The other thing that’s really exciting is we’re just starting to learn that hydrogen occurs naturally underground and we’ll talk some more about that.

Now, the US Geological Survey or the USGS estimates that the accessible hydrogen actually has more energy than all the known natural gas reserves. But why I get involved in this is as an engineer, I could see that the reasons for picking the right solutions to replace fossil fuels are that they’re kind of complicated. They don’t fit into sound bites, and they’re kind of misunderstood.

One of my favorite quotes, which is actually from H.L. Mencken, who people might know as the journalist who covered the Scopes Monkey trials about 100 years ago. He said that for every complicated problem, there’s a solution that’s simple, direct, and understandable and wrong, and that can be true sometimes. So, I really wanted to start a nonprofit organization to help educate about the right solutions to these complicated environmental problems and actually to try to get out there and to get some projects going. And also, along the way to reach a wider audience, I’m doing what you do, and that is starting a podcast, which is the Hydrogen Nowcast. And to date, I’ve got about 95 episodes out there.

Wes Ashworth (05:24)

Yeah, it’s incredible. A couple of things there. One, we’ll link your podcast in the show notes. Anybody who wants to check that out, please do so. But as you touched on there, just that delicate balance, right? And the more you learn about it, I am no expert, I’m not a scientist, but the science is there and you learn about it just seeing how all the interconnection of these things on our planet, one, how closely they have to be balanced and how everything has to be in sync and one little thing that’s out of whack can really cause catastrophic effects.

So, being aware of that and I appreciate someone like yourself who is not just talking about it, being about it and being part of the solution and doing your part in the world, we’ll get into that as we go. One of the other things you touched on there, too, is just Hydrogen is essential, but it is very misunderstood. There’s a lot of hype. There’s a lot of misunderstanding around it. From your perspective, you’re in it every day. What do people most get wrong about hydrogen?

Brian DeBruine (06:41)

Well, actually, I don’t think it’s a misunderstanding about just hydrogen. I think it’s a kind of clean energy in general. And we’ll talk about some of those things. And by the way, clean is a relative term. But I use the word clean to signify basically a process that has zero greenhouse gas emissions. Some people say green, but that has specific connotations. So, I just use green, which covers methane and carbon dioxide and all those things.

Talking about the misunderstanding, I think it really is a misunderstanding of what this energy transition task is. The task is not to simply replace one fuel with another. The real goal, I, as an engineer, think of it as replacing the functions that fossil fuels provide with a low greenhouse gas alternative. And that leaves you more open to some nuance. And along the way, we have to realize that any alternative we’re going to propose has to really have the same performance and convenience. Otherwise, people aren’t going to adopt it.

So let me give you a couple of examples. So, let’s say that we want to save water. Well, we could ask everyone to switch from flush toilets to outhouses. And sure, that satisfies the need for a place to go to the bathroom, but it’s mighty inconvenient to run to in the middle of the night, especially in winter. So that really wouldn’t replace the performance and convenience, I guess I’ll say, of a toilet.

Another one we could talk about is the convenience of battery-powered vehicles. That’s a little bit of a hot topic these days. Battery-powered vehicles are different from petroleum vehicles, specifically around the issue of charge time. If you can charge at home and just drive around town, which is what a lot of people talk about, battery vehicles are actually better. It’s a lot more convenient, but for long trips, if you want to tow a trailer for really big vehicles like RVs or even off-road use, batteries just don’t last long enough to satisfy most drivers, and charging takes too long. And this isn’t just my opinion. This is borne out, actually, by public opinion polls. The four big polling agencies, Pew Research, J.D. Power, Consumer Reports, and Gallup, have asked U.S. drivers if they would ever consider switching to a battery vehicle. And only 20 to 40 % say they had any intention.

Yet, we have absolutely got to replace 100 % of vehicles, from the smallest to the largest, with something at zero emissions. So obviously, we need alternatives. And that alternative really is hydrogen because a hydrogen vehicle provides the same performance and convenience as gasoline with the same quick fueling time.

Wes Ashworth (09:11)

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to zoom in a little bit just on the case for hydrogen, not just what it is, but why it matters right now. And you’ve started to touch on that. Let’s kind of break this down further. So, in a world full of electrify everything slogans, you mentioned EVs and all of that. What can hydrogen do specifically that electrons can’t?

Brian DeBruine (09:30)

That’s a really good distinction to make. So, in the past, all of our energy came from fossil fuels, which are in the form of molecules. But renewable energy, like wind and solar and geothermal, is electricity. So, they come to us in the form of electrons, and really, there’s a big difference. Storing energy as molecules takes less weight and volume than batteries. But one of the most important attributes of molecules is that energy can be transferred much more quickly than with electrons. We just talked about that.

I can add 300 miles of range to a car in just three minutes with gasoline or with hydrogen, but it would probably take at least 20 minutes to do that with electrons via charging. And for trucks, just a small hydrogen tank, a fuel cell, and an electric motor can replace the gasoline or diesel drivetrain, but batteries are a lot heavier and they’re bulkier. It’s this volume and weight that eats into cargo capacity. Plus, batteries can’t really run a truck all day, so charging’s needed and that takes away from their work time.

Now, I want to talk about charging. That really has nothing to do with the battery. You’d have a perfect battery, but what it has to do with is the amount of power that you can realistically apply to the vehicle to charge. As I said, I can put 300 miles of range into a petroleum or hydrogen vehicle in three minutes, but if I wanted to add that much energy to a battery vehicle, even just a small sedan, in three minutes, I’d have to apply about two million watts to the car.

And trucks would take even more. So, even if you were to put, say, hundreds of pounds of copper wiring into the car to handle all that power, and let’s say you had two giant electrodes that came out of the ground to connect with the front and the rear bumper, and then zap the car with 2 million watts like bringing Frankenstein to life, now you have the problem of trying to supply that much power to the charging station.

You’d need massive new transmission lines to each charging station to charge a dozen or so cars at once. So, it’s just not practical.

Wes Ashworth (11:28)

Right. And I love the practicality aspect and I think you’re right. it’s something, sometimes it’s missed. People don’t necessarily think about that and kind of going people aren’t going to just drastically change the way that they go about their lives and the convenience and those sorts of things. So that’s an important consideration. Thinking about just the molecule side a little bit further, related to hydrogen molecules. How does it reshape the possibilities of just as clean energy for those sectors like aviation, shipping, or steel?

Brian DeBruine (11:54)

Well, in the energy transition, those molecules are really still going to be needed, not just electrons, for really three things. We’ll need molecules, as I’ve talked about a couple of times now, for the fast transfer of energy, like refueling vehicles. Secondly, molecules are needed for their dense energy content. So, we’ve got less volume and less weight. And this is important for trucks and aircraft, and ships. And third, molecules are actually needed for some chemical reactions.

People probably know that hydrogen gets used in chemical things that are done. And one specific one is making steel. You mentioned that. Just to kind of go over how making steel works is you start with iron ore, which is essentially rust. And so, you need to remove that oxygen from the iron. And historically, this was done by using carbon in the form of coke. And that carbon combines with the oxygen to make CO2, which leaves behind the iron.

But the nice thing is, hydrogen can play this role instead. The hydrogen combines with the oxygen to form water, and so you can purify your ore that way. Now, I don’t want to give the impression that I think electricity and hydrogen are the only clean solutions to replacing fossil fuels. I think it’s clear that in some cases, we’re probably still going to need biofuels. And those cases are long-distance aviation for big jets, you know, going intercontinental, shipping the big ships going across the ocean, and also replacing natural gas for existing building heating.

Now, although biofuel is a hydrocarbon, it would be made from plants, things like algae or agricultural forest waste, or even sewage, which means that the carbon came from the atmosphere in the first place. So, it’s a net-zero carbon emitter. But one idea is that you could require the biofuel maker to sequester some portion of their biofuel, kind of like paying a tax with some fuel rather than money, which would make the biofuel slightly carbon negative.

Wes Ashworth (13:49)

Absolutely, now it paints a really good picture and it just kind of like understanding how it all comes together. I think the more I learn, the more I just really realize that it’s an and not an or it’s gonna require a lot of different sources, hydrogen being one of them and a big piece of that. But it’s not like one blanket, like oh this is gonna replace everything and all fossil fuels and works for everything like specific use cases and things where it really does make the most sense.

One thing I do want to dig into that you touched on a little bit earlier, but hydrogen, you’ve said, is not just an energy carrier, it’s a source. And can you unpack the implications of natural hydrogen for our energy future? And I’ll be honest, I didn’t know too much about that prior to us having a conversation and looking into it. But I’d love for the listeners to hear a bit about that as well.

Brian DeBruine (14:39)

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I just came back from a symposium down in Houston called Drilling for Hydrogen. It was all about natural hydrogen. It’s such a new topic, but we’ll talk about that. Talking about the difference between an energy carrier and an energy source. Well, this is kind of a historic thing that in the past, clean hydrogen was considered only to be an energy carrier because just a few years ago, it was made by splitting water we talked about before into hydrogen and oxygen. Water is H20, you can split those and get the hydrogen and that was to be done using clean electricity. So, they considered it just a carrier because that wasn’t the source that clean energy was a source or electricity. But remarkably, in just the last five years, as we’ve been talking about, we’ve learned that hydrogen does occur naturally underground, and this in itself is really an interesting story.

Not too many years ago, scientists, engineers, and geologists just assumed that hydrogen couldn’t be found in nature because it was such a light and volatile gas. So, they weren’t looking for it. But it was even worse than that. The gas chromatographs that are used to detect gases use hydrogen as a carrier gas. And so, they always zeroed it out in their analysis. So even if they had accidentally detected hydrogen, which they probably did but didn’t know it, they always subtracted it out.

Around 10 or 15 years ago, the Russians realized that hydrogen does occur naturally, and it’s really all over the world. As a matter of fact, an interesting story, the Olympic flame, which was lit by an ongoing flame that comes out of the ground in Turkey, was probably one of the first sources of hydrogen, and people probably didn’t even know that.

But anyway, the Earth is creating all this hydrogen all the time, but because it escapes the atmosphere, the Earth is actually leaving a faint trail of hydrogen in space, almost like a comet. So, since the Russians kind of tipped us all off to the occurrence of natural hydrogen, the search has really been on in earnest. Just recently, the USGS, the US Geological Survey, published a map. And based on historical geologic data that they already had, which they compiled, they can now show where hydrogen is most likely to be found in the US. And it’s a lot of places. It’s all over the place.

As a matter of fact, conservative estimates of the amount of accessible hydrogen indicate that it’s probably larger than all the known natural gas reserves. So, this is pretty important. So, the other exciting news to this is that natural hydrogen will be cheap enough to compete with natural gas and gasoline, and diesel, even including the transportation costs for the hydrogen.

So, with this possible abundance and low cost, natural hydrogen might become one of the leading energy sources that you’ve never heard of, clean or otherwise, in the world. So, stay tuned on that.

Wes Ashworth (17:25)

Yeah, absolutely. And kind of just considering all that, right? And you understand kind of the benefits of hydrogen. Obviously, now you’re talking about accessibility and naturally occurring hydrogen. Why has hydrogen adoption lagged behind when you think about solar, wind, and EVs? Is it perception, infrastructure, economics, or all the above?

Brian DeBruine (17:49)

Yeah, that’s such a great question and it’s frustrating, but we already have a really robust infrastructure in place for electricity. So, the clean electricity sources like wind and solar, and geothermal are pretty easy to adopt. You just connect them up to the grid. And the same is true for battery vehicles. You could plug in a battery vehicle in really any outlet, even though in some cases that could be extremely slow, but at least you’re not stuck without being able to charge at all.

The problem with hydrogen is that the entire supply chain doesn’t exist. There are very few clean producers. We don’t have hydrogen pipelines in much of the US. And the devices to use these things, like hydrogen cars and trucks and buses, are pretty limited and not sold everywhere. So really, what we kind of have is a stalemate. The hydrogen producers can’t supply hydrogen because they’re waiting for buyers. And people who want to buy hydrogen can’t because they’re waiting for the sellers to go into business.

So really, what they all need to do is to enter the market at the same time, the same location, and at the same scale. But somebody needs to orchestrate this. And really, this is one of the main reasons I founded the Colorado Hydrogen Network, to try to bring together the sellers, the buyers, and the infrastructure, and at the same time, on the same scale.

Wes Ashworth (19:02)

Yeah, absolutely. you mentioned this earlier too, just hydrogen offering performance parity with fossil fuels. You kind of do that comparison. Is that what you think will finally tip the scales for mass adoption or what will it be? What will it take?

Brian DeBruine (19:16)

Yeah, great question. Well, it’s going to take that performance parity. People aren’t going to adopt something new unless that has the best performance and convenience of what they were using. it’s not performance, only performance parity; it’s cost parity as well. So, let’s kind of be clear about this because we don’t really need clean energy per se. Fossil fuels work so well, they’re cheap thanks to subsidies and have over a century to optimize supply chains.

So, even though clean energy is cost-competitive with fossil fuels, the only motivation to convert is to decarbonize. But to implement clean energy requires leadership, which there’s a complete lack of today, at least in America. Leadership is needed to really just set a plan so that businesses have the confidence to proceed and investors have the confidence to invest. But you ask what could tip the scales for the adoption of hydrogen and to me, I think it really seems clear now that natural hydrogen is a real game changer. It’s got the potential to be as cheap as natural gas, but unlike natural gas, it’s expected to be accessible in almost every state. Oh, and by the way, in many cases, natural hydrogen is generated underground in a continuous process, so it’s renewable in a lot of cases.

Wes Ashworth (20:24)

Yeah, no, very cool. Again, something I knew very little about, but I’m going to continue to learn about it as well, now in research. Super interesting. And obviously, you’re doing your part, boots on the ground and trying to make it happen from your perspective.

So, I want to talk about how you’re turning some big ideas into real infrastructure. And you’ve said, you know, hydrogen is a business problem, not necessarily a technical problem. And I like it framed that way. Can you share what you specifically mean by that?

Brian DeBruine (20:59)

Well, basically, it comes down to the fact that there’s no hydrogen market. And what I mean by market is a multiple number of sellers, buyers, and a means of delivery, plus the equipment to use the hydrogen. And so right now, anybody who wants to enter the market to buy or sell can’t really do it until someone else moves first, or they can coordinate and move together.

So, like I said, I think I mentioned this already with transportation. I companies want to get into the market to build hydrogen fuel stations, but the vehicles aren’t there unless you’re in California. And plenty of people would love to buy a hydrogen-powered EV. I hear from them all the time, but there aren’t any fuel stations, so we’re at a stalemate.

So, the other part of the business problem, though, is that when you start a business, it takes a fair amount of money upfront. You’ve to buy material or purchase capital equipment. And of course, this money almost always comes from investors. But because the hydrogen market is so new and we have no national plan, a lot of the investors are just reluctant to start projects.

Wes Ashworth (21:59)

Yeah, it makes sense. And I think you’re seeing that and it’s probably why hydrogen deployment is such a systems challenge. And you said kind of like needing the suppliers, users, and infrastructure to all scale simultaneously at once. I guess, can you expand on that a little bit further? And then is it going to happen, I guess, when you think about that and everybody needing to do it all at the same time? What will it finally take, or what kind of, I guess, break that stalemate ultimately?

Brian DeBruine (22:26)

Yeah, break that logjam. Well, I think that really the biggest reason is that this model is kind of outside the business model of a lot of businesses. The marketing model for most companies is to just find a customer who’s willing to buy their product. They aren’t in the habit of finding customers plus convincing them to switch to an alternative product. And that just takes time and education. And add to that the fact that the seller may have to even find infrastructure, like vehicles to use their product, the hydrogen that they’re selling, and refer those to the user.

This problem might not be solved without an outside agent. It’s somebody to bring all these parties together, the suppliers, the users, and the infrastructure at the same time, and at the same scale. And this is what I meant when I said earlier that leadership is needed. Leadership to create a national plan and get everyone to act together by knowing that we’re all working toward a plan.

There is one small solution that’s being implemented by a start-up company that I helped found, which is called New Day Hydrogen. And what they’re doing is they’re first going out and enlisting trucking fleets to be customers. And then in turn, they’ll install a modular hydrogen fuel station near them to serve them, plus other people. And they’ve also lined up a list of commercial hydrogen vehicles that are available.

Wes Ashworth (23:45)

Yeah. And what’s behind that? So why start with fleet customers instead of passenger vehicles or another area?

Brian DeBruine (23:51)

Well, the reason for this is that obviously any business has to retrieve or achieve a return on its investment. And that is, they need to sell enough product or service to cover the cost of setting up their business. So, if you’re gonna invest 2 million in a hydrogen fuel station, you gotta sell enough fuel to cover your operating costs to pay off your capital investment and hopefully even make a little profit.

Now, a delivery truck, if we talk about fleets, is probably going to use about 10 kilograms of hydrogen a day. And I think the listeners can think of a kilogram of hydrogen as roughly equivalent to a gallon of gasoline. Hydrogen vehicles get at least twice the mileage. So, a truck could probably use about 10 kilograms a day. A passenger car that’s driven the average number of miles would only use about half a kilogram of hydrogen a day.

So, if you’re building a fuel station, you would need to enlist either 20 cars to equal one delivery truck as a customer. And also with the cars, these are individual owners, you don’t have any way to predict when these cars are gonna be purchased and so on. If you first approach a trucking fleet, and they agree to get a few vehicles, provided that you supply the hydrogen fuel, that’s a lot more predictable and under your control.

Wes Ashworth (25:05)

Absolutely. And just with this and what you’ve done. So, you won a nine-million-dollar grant to build the first three hydrogen fuel stations in Colorado. Can you tell us a bit more about that and just how to make that happen?

Brian DeBruine (25:16)

Well, what you’re referring to is called the Charging and Fueling Infrastructure Grant, and this is offered by the Department of Transportation. And this grant was awarded to New Day Hydrogen and Colorado State University, or CSU, but I did help with the proposal. It wasn’t all me, believe me, I got a lot of help.

Anyway, these three hydrogen fuel stations are going to be located in the cities of Fort Collins, Denver, and Pueblo. And the reason for those is that those towns are associated with the CSU campuses. And these stations are also right along the major north-south Interstate 25 corridor in Colorado. So, they form a really nice constellation of initial fuel stations that can be used by individuals and trucking companies, or anybody.

By the way, this I-25 corridor is one of the alternative fuel corridors that are designated by the Federal Highway Administration.

Wes Ashworth (26:03)

Yeah, that’s incredible. Incredible that that’s happening. You’re seeing it happen and pop up. Obviously, the grants are available. Not sure everybody knows that as well too and some of those sorts of things. But when you’re passionate and curious, digging into it, aligning with the right folks, a lot of great things can happen, like this is pretty special to see it happen. I do want to go back a little bit just to understand your background. You spent, again, a long time in aerospace. I’m curious sort of those lessons from aerospace engineering.

How have they carried over into your hydrogen work and what are you’re doing now?

Brian DeBruine (26:33)

Well, that’s a great question because it kind of relates to this proposal, because during my career at Honeywell, about 25 years of that career, I spent writing proposals for the Department of Defense, either directly to the Air Force or through the prime contractors like Boeing or Lockheed. But the point of that is that the government has a really rigorous procurement process. They follow mill standards, quite a number of best practices and things like that.

So, I was really familiar with what a proposal to the government should contain. So, we made sure that we included all of those topics in our proposal to the Department of Transportation. And these are sort of mundane things like test plans and test procedures and the data items that you’re going to deliver and even third-party oversight. And we actually were able to propose contracting with NREL since NREL is right in our background to do that oversight.

Wes Ashworth (27:03)

Yeah, well, I appreciate the work that you’re doing to help make that happen. And again, just being a part of the solution and taking it on it’s no easy feat. I do want to expand a little bit and dig into what you’re doing a bit more with Colorado Hydrogen Network. What does it actually do day to day for those who maybe don’t understand or don’t know? And then what’s the dream for it? If you look five years from now, what do you hope it’ll be?

Brian DeBruine (27:46)

Well, we’re a nonprofit, a 501C6, and so we’re out there just really for the public good. And we’ve been around just a little over five years. In addition, really, to the main mission of trying to act as a catalyst to get these projects deployed, we also hold monthly meetings. They’re on the third Tuesday of every month, and they’re online, and everyone’s welcome to attend. You don’t have to pay for a membership. Just had a meeting yesterday. We had, I think, about 30 people. And we typically get 30 to 40 participants, and they’re all over the country, New York, Boston, Alaska.

At these meetings, we typically present tutorials about not only technical things, but also the business aspects. And we also get various companies to come out and give a presentation, talk about what they’re doing, so people have familiarity with that. Now, although we’re named the Colorado Hydrogen Network, that’s really because we’re located in Colorado. Our focus is really the entire country.  And then beyond that, we also publish a monthly publication that people can subscribe to.

Wes Ashworth (28:43)

I love it. And I’ll link some of that in the show notes as well to anybody who wants to go check that out. Give you quick access there with some links. Part of what you’re doing as well, which we’ve already touched on, is being a podcast host. And it’s cool to interview a fellow podcast host. But with the Hydrogen Nowcast, over 90 episodes is incredible. Just quick takeaways.

What are you learning from guests around the world? What are some of those things that tend to come up often and what are you learning through that?

Brian DeBruine (29:08)

Well, one of the first things that I did when we founded the Colorado Hydrogen Network was, I spent the first year just contacting dozens of people, anybody I could think of. From organizations and the hydrogen ecosystem, almost anything to do with energy. And, it’s interesting that in those dozens of requests, I think I only ever received one person who turned me down. But that’s really fascinating that people were that interested in participating.

What I learned from all these conversations was really quite a lot. There were things like solid state compressors and hydrogen for internal combustion engines and using metal hydride storage tanks and other tank technology, hydrogen detectors, making energy from tires and plastic and so on. I even talked to a Los Alamos lab scientist, actually twice, about using algae for direct air carbon capture and making biofuels from those algae. So, it’s just really been an education.

So, what I kind of discovered, though, was that after learning about all these facets of energy technology, it really kind of gave me a perspective on which form of energy, like electricity, hydrogen, or biofuel, that was right for all the sectors that we need to decarbonize. And I also came to realize that this technology is changing so much and so fast that we all have got to update our opinions weekly.

Wes Ashworth (30:29)

I agree with that completely. And we hear that come up a lot. People, even in the industry that were working off a wrong assumption sometimes, because it changes that fast. So, staying curious, staying up to date, really, really important. Obviously, you retired from your full-time kind of work. You’re doing full-time work now, but in your career, you’re doing this pro bono. Obviously, you’re very motivated and passionate about it.

The stakes you describe are big, the challenges are high, the stakes are high, but your tone is one of possibility and positivity and you can see that genuine excitement comes across as you talk. Tell us a bit about that, just how do you stay motivated?

Brian DeBruine (31:08)

Well, some of my friends say I’m kind of a failure at retirement. But really, trying to save the climate is something that I’m just driven to do. I could not, in all conscience, stop what I’m doing. And the other thing is, because I’m retired, I have the luxury of time to devote to this. And I also have a lot of skills from my career at Honeywell Aerospace, skills like boiling down really complex problems and techno babble into an easy-to-understand message. I can only do so much, but as the statesman Edmund Burke said back in the 1700s, there’s no greater mistake than to do nothing because you could only do a little.

Wes Ashworth (31:47)

Yeah, I love that. Such a powerful quote. Powerful quote for sure. it’s one of those things I think with and I love that there are folks like yourself from an engineering, technical science background that can distill it down for folks that aren’t, where it’s easy to digest and understand and get your head around. And admittedly, I think, thinking years and years and years back when the first-time climate change was first mentioned, I think I was a doubter, it’s kind of like, yeah, okay.

But then you really start, if you’re curious and you open yourself up to it, learning, doing some research, looking at the science, not opinion, just data science and what’s really happening. It’s very, very tough to deny and really have a logical argument where you go, okay, there is an issue here. So again, thank you for taking that passion on and doing something about it and doing the great work that you’re doing.

I’ll ask you this, so as you’ve been doing it now for quite some time, what’s something that surprised you about this work? Maybe something you didn’t expect when you first got started.

Brian DeBruine (32:46)

Well, there were some surprises. I mean, a couple of things. First of all, I never really thought that there would be a pushback from some of the climate activists on certain solutions. For example, hydrogen. You got people out there that are hydrogen haters. And it’s fine to have your own favorite solution, but fighting other solutions is really doing more harm than good. And anyone who fights climate solutions, any of them, any of the climate solutions, has got to consider that they may be wrong.

We just said, you’ve got to update your opinions weekly. And if you haven’t updated it for years, you probably are wrong about a lot of things. And by fighting any other possible solutions, really, they’re doing a huge disservice, and they’re setting back progress to solve the climate problem. Really, we need all solutions on deck. So that’s the first thing that surprised me. The second one is that I never dreamed it would take this long to get some fuel stations deployed, and that others aren’t doing it yet.

I would have thought maybe some state would have thrown some money at it, like California has. And again, I just think people don’t understand this. And that’s why I’m in the space to try to develop that understanding. Now, I had a source of state money lined up in 2019, and the governor was giving his approval and that was to be for one fuel station. But then COVID hit, and we lost that money. And we’ve already talked about this nine-million-dollar Federal Highway Administration grant.

But that work is being delayed because of this energy chaos caused by the federal government. Meanwhile, this atmospheric CO2 continues to climb at an ever-accelerating rate. I mean, we’re off the cliff.

Wes Ashworth (34:17)

Yeah, without a doubt. Again, if you go and look at that data, you can’t argue with it. It’s there, it’s happening. And I agree. I think there are some that are just have their favorite solution and then everything else is somehow wrong. And then that’s the wrong approach. I think I often say it’s an and, not an or, it’s an all, not a this or that. It’s going to take a lot of different solutions and different pieces of the puzzle to make it happen.

Brian DeBruine (34:42)

Well, Wes, if I could just interject something here, I recently did a podcast about climate denial and things like that. And one of the things that the psychologists talk about is that you can’t fight people’s misinterpretation of whatever data with more data. It’s just like the pressure on that door only closes it harder. And the real way to do it is to tell stories. Now that’s hard. I have to think of these stories in advance because it’s too hard to think them up at the time.

If you know somebody who’s a climate denier or whatever, don’t try to hit him with data that does not work. Try to come up with a story and the reason is that the psychologists say that when you are relating a story to somebody, kind of like a podcast, your brains kind of synchronize, you become a little bit more open, a little more willing. Let me tell you a story that just gets people this attention. It’s like a miner walks into a bar. You’ve got somebody’s attention. So never fight misinterpreted data with more data. You’ve got to use the story.

Wes Ashworth (35:41)

Yeah, I’m glad you shared that. It’s a great insight. It’s things you know and you hear, but sometimes it’s like you got to put it in your different boxes and go, no, that still applies, right? That’s sales 101. It tells stories, don’t just shove stats down somebody’s face. That’s good. I’m glad you brought that up.

I would love to hear your opinion on some of the things when hydrogen comes up, and the pushback you get, and some of the things maybe that are just so far off, maybe they were true at some point, maybe they weren’t. If you can, just maybe one or two of those, of just what are the things you really hear and then how do you combat it and kind of tell a story or give it a different perspective?

Brian DeBruine (36:31)

Well, it’s not just about hydrogen, but the really huge myth that’s out there is that in order to decarbonize, we either have to change our lifestyle or that clean energy is more expensive. And both of those are just baloney, a technical term, baloney. Clean energy, I’m going to kind of get to statistics here more so than a story, but clean energy is cheaper. And the other thing is it’s more resilient, and it’s every bit as convenient as fossil fuels, but without the greenhouse gas.

It’s really a lie to think that anyone has to make sacrifices or pay more for clean energy solutions. Wind, solar, geothermal, biofuels, and natural hydrogen are really all cheaper than fossil fuels, and they can all have the same performance and convenience that we’re used to.

Another thing is, though, that clean energy is what we call more distributed. And by distributed, we mean that it’s many small sources and small systems rather than just a few big power plants and one large grid. And the important thing about that is this makes clean energy much more resilient to weather or terrorism. Unfortunately, energy has become a political issue, which is just ludicrous. Clean energy helps everyone, and it hurts no one. It’s cost-competitive with fossil fuels. It’s good business and there’s money to be made making and using it. So, let’s just keep the politics out of it.

Wes Ashworth (37:40)

Yeah, agreed. If I could have one wish and wave a wand, it would probably be that. So glad you shared it as well. Before we close, I can of like want to shift a bit from just macro to a bit more personal, just advice, action, what comes next, and hearing your thoughts there. You mentioned a couple there.

Any other kind of major myths, assumptions about clean energy you wish you could just erase overnight? Is anything else kind of a big one for you?

Brian DeBruine (38:16)

Not too much, although I will say, it’s maybe not so much a myth, but the people out there, and that’s probably most of us who want to see fossil fuels go away, I think it’s a mistake to fight the fossil fuels. I think you have to replace it with something. Be for something, be for the clean energy solutions. And because they’re cheaper and they provide the same performance and convenience, those are going to displace the fossil fuels. You can’t put the cart in front of the horse.

Wes Ashworth (38:32)

Yeah, I love that. I heard a quote one time. It was of be more about what you’re for than what you’re against. You get a lot more done that way for sure. Throughout, so I know your work, you’ve talked a lot about collaboration. Who are your dream partners right now? The people or organizations that could really move the needle?

Brian DeBruine (38:46)

Well, one of my favorite things I love to say is that if you’re going to dream, dream big. So, my first dream partner would be some billionaire who would develop an interest in hydrogen and just help us deploy some hydrogen stations just to seed the market. It wouldn’t take that much, $2 million a station and just put a few stations in some major cities to start seeding the market. And it’s going to be like lighting a campfire. You light that match, and everything’s in place and it’s just going to take off.

Barring that billionaire somewhere, like I said, we need to develop this whole value chain from supply to infrastructure to demand. And the cheapest hydrogen that’s going to compete with petroleum is geologic. It’s probably around 30 cents a kilogram at the well at scale. But of course, developing hydrogen wells takes some amount of capital investment, which you can recover, but you need to sell quite a bit of hydrogen. So, where I’m going with this is that you also need a big off-taker, like a data center or a utility that wants to convert a gas turbine to hydrogen, or maybe inject some hydrogen into the natural gas system.

So, the dream partners, first choice billionaire, but barring that, the geologic hydrogen developers are really getting started, and then maybe some data centers or some utilities to be off-takers. So, by the way, the way people may be puzzling, well, data centers need electricity. Why are we talking about hydrogen? Well, the way hydrogen would work for a data center is that the geologic hydrogen could be turned into electricity with fuel cells or even hydrogen turbines that power generators. The hydrogen well could be located right on the same campus as the data center. So, you wouldn’t have to have transmission lines or new utility power plants, which is one of the big objections people have to these data centers.

Now, once you’re doing that, a little bit of this hydrogen could be sold to the small users like fuel stations, which would provide them with really low-cost hydrogen. So, this would really help start the market.

Wes Ashworth (40:53)

Yeah, it’s cool. Hopefully, that billionaire is listening to this episode and a phone call away. If someone is listening, not that billionaire, maybe they are, but they’re excited about hydrogen. They don’t know where to start. What’s the smartest entry point into the ecosystem right now from your perspective?

Brian DeBruine (40:56)

Well, I’d like to break this down, maybe into three groups, because I think the answer is a little bit different for all three. So first of all, if you’re a company or an organization that’s either a hydrogen supplier or possibly a user like a trucking company, get in touch with me either through the website at colorado-hydrogen.org or on LinkedIn. And I’ll brainstorm with you some possible projects and the Colorado Hydrogen Network can actually help do some of the legwork.

I talked about having to go out to talk to customers and convince them to move and generate ideas and educate them. So, we can help find other members of that project chain and entice them to participate. So that’s companies and organizations. Now, second, if you’re an individual who’s retired like me, consider actually doing something where you are. Maybe you could help establish a hydrogen fuel station. You don’t have to do it all yourself.

Give me a call. I’ll connect you with New Day Hydrogen. They can help. Or maybe you could volunteer for an organization like CHN, or maybe start a CHN in your area. Again, you’re more than welcome to reach out to me. I’m happy to talk with anybody. We can brainstorm ideas and possibilities. It’s free. And lastly, I would say for probably the majority of the listeners out there, if you’re working, do small things. Maybe it’s just voting or campaigning for candidates who support clean energy in the climate.

Maybe it’s through donations to climate organizations or even just educating yourself.

I’ve got something that I call tech briefs. They’re on the CHN website on the resources page. And these are PowerPoint slides. They’re easy to understand. They can introduce you to the technology and some of the business aspects, cost price analysis and things like that. And I think I may have already mentioned this, but everybody’s welcome to attend our monthly meetings and to get our newsletter.

And you can sign up for both of those on the join page at the colorado-hydrogen.org website. But again, you don’t have to join to come to the meetings or get the newsletter. We have plenty of people who aren’t members.

Wes Ashworth (43:07)

Yeah, good stuff. And I will add those links as well to the show notes. So, go and check those out and take those first steps. With that kind of last question, the last word is yours, Brian. Anything else you’d like to leave listeners with, things you didn’t get to share, can be advice, a perspective shift, or anything that’s on your mind.

Brian DeBruine (43:22)

I’m glad you asked that. Actually, I’ve got three things to mention. The first is kind of repeating what I said at the beginning, and that is, we’re in a climate emergency. We are off the cliff, and we’ve got to get serious about implementing clean energy. I’m not trying to scare to care, but I am trying to scare to act, do something. Even the smallest action matters.

Now, the second thing on the line is because clean energy is cost-competitive with fossil fuels. This is a great business opportunity; do not believe any propaganda out there that says clean energy is more expensive or that we have to change our lifestyles. That’s absolutely just not true.

And then the last thing I’ve touched on so many times already, and that is to just try to encourage everybody to get involved. I mean, that’s the purpose of the Colorado Hydrogen Network and the podcast. Again, like I said before, it’s a mistake to do nothing because you can only do a little. If we think about it, it was small contributions to greenhouse gas by all of us that caused the problem. And it’s going to be small steps by lots of people that can reverse it. So, don’t wait for somebody else to solve the problem. The listeners are all welcome to contact me. We’ll talk through ideas because that’s what I do as a nonprofit. So just in closing, I’ll just say you can reach me on LinkedIn or through the website, Colorado dash hydrogen dot org. And my email, I’ll give it to you right now, is my name, Brian.debruin@gmail.com, which is spelled Brian.

So, Wes, thank you again.

Wes Ashworth (44:52)

Yeah, thank you. This has been such an enjoyable conversation and a great way to just wrap it up there. Thank you for the incredible conversation again and the important work you’re doing to move hydrogen forward and move clean energy ahead as well to from building the Colorado Hydrogen Network to launching real-world projects and educating a global audience. Your story just shows what one person can do to catalyze real change, as you just said there.

To our listeners, as always, thank you for joining us. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please subscribe, rate, and share the show with others who care about the future of energy and we will see you soon.