Green Giants – Episode 75

Wes Ashworth (03:27)

Yeah, it’s cool. It’s a cool story. And so many paths are exactly like that, right? And I think it’s encouraging to see young professionals who want to have it all laid out. And I’m to do exactly this. It’s like, yeah, we’ll see. Check back in 15, 20 years. We’ll see where you’re at. Usually it’s a winding road, but we end up where we’re supposed to be. So that’s cool.

As I mentioned, you’ve held roles across policy, government relations, and advocacy in a number of organizations in the energy sector, as you just mentioned in your story there. How have those experiences shaped how you lead and advocate today? How does that show up in your work every day?

Justin Rangooni (04:01)

I think I was lucky enough having that legal background but then working in government so I knew what the other side in government was and so when I was outside of government I kind of understood the pressures, what they’re looking for, getting to the point, just like trying to speak the government’s language or the system operator or the regulator’s language so I knew that going in so as I was on the other side working with members in the clean energy space I was able to say okay what are our asks how do we package up properly so they can understand it.

Again, that was probably the biggest takeaway from my career is understanding how to package the advocacy ask to meet what’s needed at the time and to achieve some results. So, we’ve been successful at ESC since I first started in 2019. I’m sure we’ll talk about this too, the journey at Energy Storage, but really, it was all about like pilot projects and demonstration projects. You’re like five years away from being five years away. And it was like, no, no, we’re ready now. So, let’s figure out a way how we can package the information so you know we’re ready and how it meets your objectives.

Wes Ashworth (05:07)

Makes a lot of sense. You kind of hear how those lessons inform your leadership style today and just those different pieces of how they play in. So that’s really cool. We’ll dig into this, so for listeners maybe unfamiliar with Energy Storage Canada, give us the big picture. What does the organization do and why does it matter right now?

Justin Rangooni (05:23)

Okay, so we are the voice of the sector. We do this 24/7, 365 days a year. We only focus on energy storage technologies. So, most people think of batteries, and that’s right. We have batteries, most prevalent right now. People understand it because they have phones, when they’re charging up their phones. Same kind of concept. It’s the same. technology, that lithium-ion technology in your phone is basically the same as what’s being put in utility batteries right now. But there are also other forms of energy storage. There’s pump storage, which takes the water up and holds it until it’s needed. And there’s one in Niagara Falls since the 1950s or 60s.

Now there are newer technologies coming to compressed air, which is using like salt caverns to hold compressed air before being released to turn turbines. There’s thermal storage. There are new battery chemistries that are exciting. You can go on the periodic table, pick some elements, and say, okay, is that a battery? Because that’s what’s happening. So, you got zinc-based, you got vanadium-based, you got sodium-based, and that’s where it’s really exciting.

And all these different energy storage technologies do different things. They can be of different sizes, they can hold for seconds the energy to days, weeks, months, seasons, what have you. Again, they can be connected on a large scale, connected to the transmission session, and a little bit smaller to the distribution. They could be at your house or at your business. Even your car, your electric vehicle, if you have one, which I do, love driving it, everyone should have at least one, is like a battery for your house, basically. And that’s where the technology is going.

So, we represent all those things. So, our members are 100 plus, we’ve grown across the country, really, it’s every energy type of company and everything in between that you can imagine and that’s what makes the space exciting. It’s not just a certain segment; it’s everybody. If you’re interested in energy storage, we want you to be a member and so we can keep pushing it in every province and every territory and every municipality in Canada.

Wes Ashworth (07:16)

I love energy storage for that reason. It connects all of the different avenues and technologies and all the different things. It ties kind of to all of it. And it’s a clear snapshot that you just painted. And the reason why it’s important, there are so many different styles, different technologies, different uses, different things coming out. The education piece, connecting those folks, is really, really important. It’s obviously very important work that you’re doing.

Now that we kind of understand a little bit of the background, so your personal journey, the role of Energy Storage Canada, zoom out a little bit to the bigger picture, look at how storage fits into Canada’s rapidly evolving energy system. So, the energy system is in a period of historic transformation. How is energy storage positioned in that shift from your perspective?

Justin Rangooni (07:59)

Okay, so we look at energy storage as being the linchpin or the center of the current and future energy system. It supports our system now in optimizing, increasing reliability and flexibility, particularly as many of our electricity grids look at substantial expansions to meet growing demand and reduce the carbon output of the grids. And all that changes makes the reliability and multitasking of energy storage assets absolutely essential to ensuring we have the energy we need and that it’s affordable, reliable for rate payers. And that’s the key. We look at energy storage as being the center of it all.

You can have whatever supply mix the province wants. You could be the system operator, or the regulator might have certain objectives they’re trying to achieve. We believe energy storage is at the center of all that and you need it to achieve those goals.

Wes Ashworth (08:48)

Yeah, it really shows how storage has moved from that. So, side player to a core part of the grid and kind of what I was saying, too, just it connects everything like all those technologies, sort of like storage is right at the center of it. And storage, often described maybe as a Swiss army knife for the grid. For that same reason, what does that mean in practice? What does that mean to you?

Justin Rangooni (09:01)

Yes. That’s right. So, a Swiss Army Knife, Annette Verschuren, the CEO of NRStor, which helped build the Oneida project, always called it, energy storage is like bacon, it goes with everything. So, there are different ways to look at it, but essentially the same thing, that it just works.

So, energy storage, if you take a step back, is any technology or process that captures energy when it’s not needed and stores it for later use, eventually discharging it. Again, that could be batteries, that could be compressed air, thermal storage, pump storage, what have you. So, energy storage, we believe, is complementary to all technology types, even nuclear and gas.

You think wind and solar right now, which does such a great job but also helps optimize water power, nuclear, gas, what have you. So, energy storage supports reliability, sustainability but most importantly, affordability of our resource and it’s a multi-service and that’s where that Swiss Army knife kind of comes in. It’s like a multi-tool; it can provide a range of services to the electricity grid, which we in the industry like to call value stacking, so it could do all these certain things.

The impact means we’re able to invest in a single asset, whatever the energy storage technologies, that can meet a range of needs. Even if those needs change and evolve in the future, that’s really the exciting thing about energy storage being that Swiss Army knife. You might get it, you might install it for one reason and then something else pops up, then you realize, well, I can actually use that energy storage resource for that now.

Wes Ashworth (10:29)

It’s a vivid way of putting it. I love the Swiss Army knife comparison and bacon; it goes with everything. What misconceptions or outdated assumptions do you encounter most often about energy storage? And I’d love to just hear your perspective on those.

Justin Rangooni (10:32)

Yeah, there are certain things. I think what we face with those right now is that energy storage is different than a generation asset. So, it’s different from say wind or solar or hydro, what have you. It optimizes those assets really well. It will store that energy from those sources, but it’s different. It’s not a generator, and it’s not a load. It’s something kind of in between or very unique. But again, it helps address those intermittency issues with renewables, but the functionality of storage is much greater.

Another myth that comes out is that energy storage is experimental. It’s still like a science fair project, like what we faced, like what I kind of faced back in 2019. The industry is still relatively new compared to others. Applying technologies like lithium in different ways than before is kind of new, but they actually have been around for a long time, like we talked about the pump storage and Niagara Falls actually been around for almost 50 to 60 years. But I think the concept is that it’s providing value right now in Canada, in the US and you’re all over the world.

So, that’s where we kind of say this is ready now, even more technologies of energy storage are coming down the pipe. So, it’s ready now, and then the last one probably is that it’s still too expensive, the economics don’t work. Well, actually, that one’s been proven false in the latest Ontario procurement, where energy storage actually came in much cheaper than gas expansion. So, it shows energy storage is competitive right now.

Wes Ashworth (12:00)

Yeah, it’s important to clear those up. And again, it changes and evolves so fast, too. Like you said, like some may be true in 2019, but not true today. And so, clearing those up really helps listeners understand what storage actually is and isn’t.

One of those things too, just in addition to that, you always kind of hear around it is it’s just safety, right? And safety is always a major public concern. How do you address those fears around battery fires and toxicity? You hear it, maybe you’re hearing it less now but how do you continue to address that?

Justin Rangooni (12:40)

And our members face that, especially as they’re going to a new community that maybe doesn’t have energy storage already there. It’s a legitimate question. We understand it. We kind of take different approaches to it. So, our primary approach to addressing these fears is to provide people with the best, most reliable information we can from the experts, like buyer safety experts.

Study and manage these incidents day to day. We’re happy to share high-level answers. For instance, no studies to date have shown toxicity related to battery fires more than any other structure fire, like any other normal fire outside the immediate area. Meaning it’s not spreading for miles. It is contained in that battery cell. But as the next step, if people want to dig into the details of the data, we connect them directly with the experts who work on this actively on active fire suppression systems, setting the standards for fire safety, and doing the studies of incidents around the world to ensure we are constantly improving.

Such groups as Energy Safety Response Group and Hillier, which are members of ours, and a lot of them are ex-firefighters too, who do this. So, you can trust their expertise, which I think is really important. And we also tried to tell them the technology isn’t new. If you’re all having your phones with your Android or iPhone, what have you, that technology is the same. So, it’s not something totally foreign to you. Even if it’s the first time a project’s being proposed in your area.

Wes Ashworth (13:59)

I like that perspective. It’s cool that a firefighter is a part of that. You’re like, okay, yeah, I trust that individual for sure. Yeah, no doubt. It is one of those things, too; it’s just when it’s framed up in a very isolated way, right? You could make anything seem dangerous. We still have gasoline cars, you drive around with a tank of gasoline, like you’re going 70 miles an hour by a tanker truck on the interstate.

There are those things that, there are dangers in the wrong circumstances, but obviously, the safety measures are there. It is a very safe technology. And so, I always want to get that safety message out there as much as we can. Can you walk us through what happens when a grid-scale storage project is proposed in a community and maybe these ties into how they feel about safety and all those sorts of things, but how are local stakeholders brought in and just what does that process look like?

Justin Rangooni (14:40)

Yeah, and so our members they really follow best practices. Some of them are really excellent at this. And they bring the community in really early on. It’s the Municipal Council, its rate payer groups, and what they do is they let them know that they’re here, they’ll set up open houses or community workshops, they’ll have websites or Facebook groups, basically just saying, here we are, here’s all the plans, here’s what the project’s gonna look like, here’s the benefits of the energy storage project, and we’re here to answer your questions and they take time.

Some of these open houses might go on for hours, and they might have so less series of them, but the best developers that are our members will be there all the time, answer each of the questions. They might answer the same question numerous, numerous times, but they’re going to do this.

And what’s key again, back on your safety question, is one of the preeminent questions that people get is, they bring in the experts. So, they will bring in the ex-firefighters or the safety experts. They’ll bring them to the councils to talk to them and just say, listen, ask all the questions. Here are the experts. You may not want to listen to the developer. You may not even know some of the associations. But here’s an expert who deals with this that you can address.

The developer will also kind of bring in maybe the local politician in the area to kind of say, hey, won’t you talk about the benefits of doing this or the system operator to kind of say like why is this needed. So again, just providing that fact-based information and understanding that this is a new project in this area. You’re gonna have concerns, you’re gonna have questions and just take the time to answer them. because I think when people see that you bring the experts, I think people get a lot more comfortable with it and eventually, as more of these projects get built now, since we have about like 3,000 megawatts in Ontario itself being built by the end of the decade, even probably even more.

People are gonna start to say you can point to other jurisdictions and say, well, the municipality next door, they got one they’ve been having it for like a year, it’s great. So, I think that’s where you kind of bring everyone along. I think that’s the key message

Wes Ashworth (16:32)

Yeah, that’s a useful perspective and that’s a common thread here. A lot is just going to those communities really early, obviously hearing them out, being there with them, really talking through the concerns, bringing the experts, not shying away from questions, all really good stuff and useful just in how community engagement actually plays out.
So, we’ve explored how storage is being deployed on the grid and in communities. I want to shift to supply chains behind those projects from Canada’s critical minerals to the challenge of building a full manufacturing ecosystem. So, you’ve been vocal about the gap between Canada’s resource extraction and its storage manufacturing. What’s missing in the middle?

Justin Rangooni (17:34)

Yeah, no, it’s a great question. So, we’re hearing a lot in the media from the federal government, provincial governments, saying we have critical minerals, we have battery critical minerals, lithium, graphite, for instance, and we want to get that out in the world. And those are key components of a battery energy storage system we’re looking at. The fact is, globally, certain countries like China have had such a head start in terms of refining those minerals to produce the battery cells. So that’s just the reality of the situation that China and other countries are ahead right now. But Canada does have a competitive advantage with the critical minerals.

So, what’s really missing, I guess, is kind of like that midstream or prioritizing where Canada’s competitive advantage is. And that could be permitting an approval process of critical mining projects, which we’re seeing federally through the Major Projects Office. So, the opportunity for quick wins to see projects moving now. And I think everyone’s on board with doing that. So, it’s just kind of figuring out how best to get the minerals out of the ground safely, with proper consultation with the digital communities or the community that has the housing of the minerals. And what is the best way to move those along the supply chain? Are there things that Canada can do in terms of refining those minerals? Is it something where we do have to kind of send it out and but that’s good for the business of the mining companies in Canada.

So really, it’s just figuring out what can be a competitive advantage and what’s the plan? Where do we want to focus this on the battery supply chain?

Wes Ashworth (19:06)

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense and paints a pretty clear picture. Obviously, the raw materials are there, and minerals are there. It’s a matter of kind of building those things out and time too. People often forget that. They think it just magically evolves instantly. It’s like, no, some other countries have a big head start. That’s why they’re a little further along. Give it some time. Let it progress.

What would it take for Canada to become a true energy storage manufacturing hub?

Justin Rangooni (19:16)

No, that’s a great question too. We’ve been thinking a lot about that and when we speak with our US counterparts or European counterparts, or even our members who come from across the globe, we talk about that. They would love to have as much made in Canada as possible for talking about batteries. Let’s talk about battery energy stores because that’s really the topic du jour. So, they would love to use as much as they can get from Canada.

So again, it goes back to that question of where is our competitive advantage in the supply chain? So, critical minerals, but it can also be things like recycling at the end, too, but also you know assembling using construction, what have you, so I think it’s just a matter of governments with us and our members figuring out what’s best, is it? And most importantly, I think we’re getting to a question like, where are our best partners now to do it? We’re getting we know China has that head start.

We used to have a really great relationship with the U.S. We hope again we will, but is that really what we can be comfortable enough to really put all our eggs in one basket with our neighbor to the south, or should we start looking at G7-type countries or other friendlier countries and say, well maybe we can find something that works here where we’re sending our minerals to be refined in another country and it comes back here, a little bit of an ecosystem.

So, a lot of the geopolitics really is kind of a big question mark because who can we trust right now? Who do we want to work with? And that changes day by day, tweet by tweet, from the president in the south.

Wes Ashworth (20:59)

Right? Yeah, no, no, absolutely. And the more you hear, I think that one of those common threads that continues to come up is just the importance of partnerships. And you mentioned that as well, too. And just knowing where those are going to come from, I think they are critically important, no matter what that is. But it really does start to tell a story and kind of see where it’s all headed.

I do want to bring in to Indigenous and First Nations communities, how can they be meaningfully included in this emerging value chain?

Justin Rangooni (21:31)

Yep, from ESC’s point of view, it’s a must. It’s not a nice-to-have, it’s not a oh, it would be really great to consume. No, it’s a must in development if you’re looking at critical minerals; if you’re looking at the entire supply chain, it’s a must to bring Indigenous and First Nation communities involved. And what’s really a success and a good news story with energy storage is that over the last three years, the ISO has run two procurements for about 2,800 megawatts of storage, which is a lot. And in the past procurement window, all but one had an Indigenous equity of 50 % or more. And that’s significant because that’s not what didn’t used to be.

So, imagine that every project almost every project in Ontario right now is storage has a major indigenous community equity component. So, in LT1, there were 10 projects for about 1800 megawatts; again, all but one had about 50 % more. In the Expedit LT1 15 projects for 930 megawatts, but almost all of them again had indigenous equity participation, so these procurements are important for system reliability, considering an opportunity for economic reconciliation with Indigenous nations when done correctly.

So, this is built on the National Benefits Sharing Framework to facilitate greater Indigenous equity ownership and major infrastructure, resources and clean energy projects. This should include following through on commitments made to the doubling of the Indigenous Loan Guarantee Program. So, we think storage and what we’ve seen is a great example of what needs to be done with almost all energy infrastructure projects going forward.

Wes Ashworth (23:02)

Yeah, it’s incredible. And I appreciate the emphasis on just partnership and equity and changing the narrative from stakeholder to co-owner and the important work that’s being done there. Just thinking about some other policy regulatory moves. What are some of those top ones you’d like to see to accelerate a secure, ethical supply chain?

Justin Rangooni (23:22)

Let’s just get the projects moving here. So, we know the good work of a major project office is getting off the ground, identifying those major projects. So, there are battery critical mineral projects or battery supply chain projects in there. Let’s get those going. Let’s see where that kind of leads us. But also moving forward on major investment tax credits. So, we call them ITCs that support clean energy and tech, like the clean energy tech, the clean electricity one, and the clean technology manufacturing. They’re all out there, and some are being implemented and already showing benefit. Others still need to be passed. So, we hope that the budget will see that as well. We’ll see some, finally, we’re going to wrap it all up and have all these ITCs providing value for clean energy projects. And looking to evolve the eligible list of technologies.

So, are there new energy storage projects like thermal energy storage, which can be included in these ITCs, or things like critical battery, critical mineral mine development as well. So, there are a lot of really good ideas out there. We have the frameworks in place, which is a matter of evolving them and really just getting down to business, getting projects moving in Canada.

Wes Ashworth (24:30)

That would be good. Get them moving. I think that’s definitely the nice underlying message there. I think it gives a clear sense of just as we talk through all this, what it takes to build a robust supply chain. I do want to broaden the lens a bit and just talk about innovation beyond lithium-ion and some of the emerging technologies that could redefine storage in the years ahead. You’ve started to mention a couple there as we get into it. So, lithium ion, as we know, dominates the conversation.

But what other technologies are you excited about? Again, you’ve already touched on a few of them, so I’ll let you just expand on those and tell us a bit about them.

Justin Rangooni (25:01)

Sure. An energy storage can. We’re excited about all the energy storage technologies that are coming down the pipe. We have a dedicated group called the long-duration energy storage. And that’s really what the new era of energy storage is. So, if we take a step back, lithium batteries have been procured now, and you’re seeing in other provinces as well, in British Columbia, Nova Scotia, and providing value in Alberta, too, provides about four hours. And they’ll hold about four hours of energy. And then that’s what the batteries right now are being configured for.

But the new technologies, including even lithium is are evolving, technology has advanced as well, and can hold things longer for longer hours. Eight plus hours is kind of where we draw the line on what we call a long-duration energy storage technology. Well, anything that holds energy for eight hours plus. So yeah, we’re looking at different battery chemistry. So, we’re looking at sodium, looking at we’re looking at Zinc, Vanadium, and other different battery chemistries. You’re looking at what we talked about, that we said about the compressed air using pump storage projects, you’re looking at thermal energy storage, and super capacitors could even be one down the road. It really gets exciting. As people started really looking at this and saying, this can work right now. So, we’re excited about them all.

Wes Ashworth (26:10)

Yeah, I love it. I think it is one of the most exciting areas there is, just because it is so broad. There are so many different solutions and technologies. And you said just from batteries, kind of get out the periodic table, but then also just some of the thermal storage components. And it’s cool. It’s a fun, evolving space. It’s fun to track it and watch it and just see all the things coming. I say this a lot in the podcast, it’s like the focus is an and not an or. It’s not just like, oh, this one little technology is going to win all.

It’s an “and”; we need all of it. They all have kind of different applications and you need them all to develop and happen. So, refreshing, always a good. There’s more than one path to decarbonization and winning when it comes to storage.

How do you explain, so you touched on there, long-duration energy storage? Maybe it is just as simple as you’ve laid it out. But if there are any other things to add, they are in terms of how you explain it to someone unfamiliar with it.

Justin Rangooni (27:03)

No, that’s a great question too. So, long-duration energy storage, as we mentioned, is something that could hold the energy for longer than four hours now than what we’re seeing with the lithium batteries. And that can take many forms. So, you can hold the potential for energy. If we look at pump storage, like the project that TC Energy is proposing in Meaford, Ontario, basically saying it’s creating a reservoir that’s going to draw water up and hold that water, and that water potential that’s held up is potential energy. Because when it’s needed, it will be released and brought down, spin some generators and create energy. So that could be held for like months, really, if you think about weeks, months, seasons.

So, we’ve got to think of it that way. Sometimes they’re really big projects, like a pump storage project. Sometimes, maybe the batteries, the new thermal batteries, they might be a little bit smaller, but they can hold and pack more punch. So, it’s really about what that energy storage can hold. How much energy can that hold? And that’s really what long duration is about, and in its name, it’s holding energy for long durations, so that’s how you probably explained it to somebody unfamiliar with it.

Wes Ashworth (28:04)

Yeah. what are some of the most, I guess, creative or unexpected use cases for storage that you’re seeing?

Justin Rangooni (28:15)

Well, I think it’s just like expanding. So right now, I think we all understand the need for energy storage to help with meeting peak demand needs in Canada. So, it’s kind of smooth out those peaks. You’re going to, when the wind, if you have an energy source that’s a bit intermittent, like wind or solar, so the wind’s not blowing, the sun’s not shining, at a certain time you need some energy, that energy storage can now play a role to fill that gap. Or when the wind’s blowing and the sun’s shining, but you don’t necessarily need that energy, well, now you can store it with energy storage technology.

So, that’s the most common use that we’re seeing now, but you’re starting to see more with thermal storage. Actually, kind of capturing energy to be used in industrial processes or for heater cooling. So Enwave in Toronto has a well project, which we just want to win an award at our conference, which your viewers can take a look at and find out more. It is a good example of something that’s a bit more unique. But also, another one that we hope to really see coming down is with our utility members or our local distribution companies, or distribution members across the country.

Looking at energy storage as a way to kind of defer investments into traditional poles and wires. So as their load increases and they have to bring electricity to more of their customers, well, instead of necessarily building more expensive poles and wires, maybe there are energy storage solutions which can make better use and hold that energy and then use and then release it when it’s needed. So, it’s just another capital deferment or a way to really save money for ratepayers, which is a kind of exciting, creative use of it, which is coming down and you can look around the globe. My goodness, there are so many examples that keep popping up. I think there’s a massive sand battery in Finland that went online.

There are so many that are just unique technologies that are going on and I’m sure next year at this time, they’ll be like Did you see that example in such-and-such jurisdiction, how they’re using energy storage? That’s really, I didn’t think that could happen, so again it’s a very exciting space.

Wes Ashworth (30:01)

I agree. I think that those are entering the space, just from the talent landscape, to it’s one of the most exciting places you can be in, just because all that is coming and you’re right. Just like this new technology or new use or something comes up and you read about you’re like, oh, that’s really cool. I hadn’t heard about that. But those use cases really broaden how we imagine storage and it’s neat to see.

So, kind of thinking through all that we’ve gone through sort of the technology. That’s one piece of the puzzle. For these solutions to thrive, the market rules and revenue models have to keep pace. And so, let’s turn to value stacking, market design. You briefly hit on that for a second earlier as we talked, but what is value stacking in energy storage, and why is it crucial to success?

Justin Rangooni (30:51)

Yeah, I think it’s crucial for not in project success, but really for anyone. You could look at it from the system operator’s perspective, the government’s, the regulator’s, the developer’s, and the community’s perspective. Really, it’s about using that resource now for more than what you initially procured it for. So, Alberta’s doing a great job right now. So, they went through a law-restructured energy market kind of process. Our own policy advisor, Robert Tremblay, was there on every stakeholder session waving the flag for storage, saying, Listen, this is an important tool that can be utilized to meet Alberta’s energy needs. And there was a lot of talk about value stacking.

So, without going into much detail, we know about the capacity importance, which we talked about optimizing the generation assets, but energy storage can also provide all these really important system operator tools like frequency regulation, voltage reduction, and even other forms of arbitrage. And then, if you can start placing value on these pieces. Well, then you start to have that value stacking. So, Alberta’s really doing a good job looking at that and saying, you can do fast frequency, that’s great. Well could also provide capacity and arbitrage; well, that’s great. Well, we need some other things for like a backup or emergency, maybe there’s a value there. So, they’re starting to do that as well. So, we want to see that everywhere as well. Just start, you have these assets, really maximize what they’re used for.

Wes Ashworth (32:10)

Yeah, now you’ve broken it down in a way that kind of demystifies it and makes it simple and you really do see the importance of that. Thinking about just market rules, how should market rules evolve just to fully unlock the value of storage assets?

Justin Rangooni (32:21)

Another great question. So, I think a lot of it’s like coordination. So, if we look at exploring utility modernization structures that would support improved transmission, distribution governance models, protocols for the coordination of resource planning, and the procurement of local supply through distribution level markets is a great one. Let’s have everybody talking who’s procuring energy or who uses energy and seeing where you can use storage. So, it could be used for the system operator, could be used for the utility. Those same resources can do those different things.

So, prioritizing the integration of energy storage or even on the distribution level, which we call DERs or distributed energy resources in the wholesale market that the ISO and the system operators run through the establishment of clear timelines for the design and implementation of these DER streams is a great example in the ISO’s enabling resource program, which is looking at that. It’s how do we change the market rules? How do we make better use of the entire system is using this?

If you can make that in tandem with existing procurement timelines, you can have a great enhanced storage design model. I’d probably look at Alberta with their REM model. That was really good about finding the best way to enable energy storage from utility scale down to the distribution side. So, coordination. Coordination is key.

Wes Ashworth (33:32)

Coordination is key. Now you kind of see where that promise then starts meeting reality, and as its market rules adapt and really do enable the best technology to get built and get out there. So, I always like hearing that sort of stuff. Thinking about this, you mentioned sort of outside of Canada. Any other global models or regions? You mentioned Alberta as well. You think Canada should look to for inspiration?

Justin Rangooni (33:56)

Good. And so last week we had our annual conference. It’s our 10th annual conference. So, we actually had speakers from the European Union. We had speakers from the US. Our members obviously come across the globe. China, India, the US, whatever country you could pick. I’m sure they were there. And yeah, there’s inspiration. You can find ways that the European Union is using energy storage. You can look at ways that the US is looking at ways of energy storage. But what the great now is, if you look at jurisdictions in Canada, that’s Alberta. It’s Ontario, it’s out east, they’re also looking at us. They’re saying, well, how did you do it? How are you utilizing it?


So, it’s really exciting to see that we don’t necessarily have to always point to a US jurisdiction. In the beginning, we would say, oh, look what California or New York or Texas is doing. So, Canada, feel comfortable. There are other jurisdictions doing that. Now it’s like, hey, we’re also doing that too. And now in Ontario, a great example is the Minister of Energy, Stephen Litchie, of reannounced this basically at our conference is that next year, you’re going to see what we call a long lead time procurement in Ontario, which is for those LDES long duration energy storage technologies.

So, that will be one of the first globally, really first in Canada, but really first globally. One of the first is going to be saying, we’re going to procure X amount of megawatts for these certain types of technologies. So now the other jurisdictions around the world are starting to pay notice and say, well, what are you doing over there? Canada, little Canada, what are you doing over there? That’s really exciting. So, it’s really, they’re looking at us for inspiration.

Wes Ashworth (35:24)

Yeah, that’s awesome. The comparative lens is helpful. I think just seeing what’s worked elsewhere gives us both cautionary lessons and new ideas to borrow. And it’s cool that you guys are starting to be like, what’s Canada doing? They’re leading the way in a lot of areas there. So, it’s neat. And I think that’s the cool thing about it, is we all come together and kind of look at this energy effects to everybody, every nation in the world. And if there’s a lot more partnerships, a lot more coming together, idea sharing, we can get a lot more done. So, hold out hope that that continues to happen.
With technical policy landscapes sort of mapped out, let’s look ahead to the near future, the developments that matter most, and the myths that need to retire. We touched on a couple of those. The reasons to feel hopeful about the grid, and I think that’s always important. What are the big developments on your radar for the next 12 to 24 months, or you can go further than that if you want too as well.

Justin Rangooni (36:17)

Oh sure. No, I think it’s basically looking at whatever jurisdiction you’re looking at. So, a lot of the provinces right now have targets. So, British Columbia has a target, Nova Scotia has a target, and Ontario has new targets to meet for its capacity needs. So, it’s really exciting to see what processes they’re going to be taking. What kind of storage technologies are they looking to procure in the next 12 to 24 months? What’s also exciting is now we can start to see how Alberta’s with all their year, their months and months of consultations, is now they’re going to start to implement. Well, what’s that going to look like for energy storage in their kind of renewed energy market space? That’s exciting too.

But also, provinces like Saskatchewan, which is just getting started on energy storage, what path are we going to work with them on to figure out how best to work with energy storage? And I think the big development you’ll see, in addition to long lead time and LDES technologies starting to be more visible, is on the distribution side. So, we call those DERs again.

We started seeing a lot more focus on that because a bit of an untouched untapped potential right now especially as demand needs are coming and supply challenges could be people are planning for that so why not look at this DERs on the distribution side of things to see how can that help meet the needs so that’s what those are I could think are coming in the next little while which will be really exciting for the entire sector.

Wes Ashworth (37:34)

Yeah, no, great. It helps us just map out where we should be watching closely. And it’s cool. You just see that there’s real momentum there. What do you hope the Canadian public will better understand about energy storage by this time, let’s say next year?

Justin Rangooni (37:48)

That’s really good. So, I think by this time next year you’ll have you’ll see more projects operating, which is exciting. So, I think the Canadian public, hopefully by then, will start to see is I know those projects. I drive by that. I see it looks good, looks great over there, and maybe like even the government’s a system operator, so the association is gonna do this job. We’re gonna trumpet all the exciting milestones and success stories of our project, so it’s just been everyone getting on board and signing it. These things are really working are provided, and they’re helping keep the lights on at affordable rates.

So, it’s just that energy storage becomes part of the mainstream when they think of energy. That they’ll understand, well, energy storage, yeah, that’s a no-brainer. Yeah, if you can do it, that makes sense. Go ahead.

Wes Ashworth (38:31)

Yeah, it’s a compelling vision. That’s just mainstream is accepted and just part of the normal way we think about energy and life. So, I love that. If there’s one myth you could permanently retire about storage, what would it be?

Justin Rangooni (38:44)

That it’s not a science experiment. That it’s ready now. You want to do your due diligence in some provinces and jurisdictions to make sure you’re comfortable. That’s great, but it’s happening globally. This thing is providing value right now. It’s helping to keep the lights on, and it’s doing it at affordable rates. It’s reliable. It’s what you need now. I think it’s just like it’s ready now, you can be confident to move forward on procuring or enabling, or installing all types of forms of energy storage because it’s available right now and ready now.

Wes Ashworth (39:18)

Yeah, it’s a good one. I think a myth is definitely worth killing off. Once you see through it, the rest of the conversation really does open up. It’s here, not a science experiment. I like that. What gives you the most hope about the future of the grid?

Justin Rangooni (39:21)

So, what I think most hope is that I think probably is that the public, for the most part, is becoming a bit more aware of it. Because the exciting thing about it is if you’re using electricity in your home or your apartment or your business, you’re going to become more of a prosumer, instead of a consumer of the energy. Hopefully, I think you’re going to become more of a prosumer.

If you have an electric vehicle, if you have smart thermostats, or if there are other ways that you can start to understand and control your electricity use, I think you’re going to start to really understand better what’s more efficient. And you can actually talk to the decision makers now and say, listen, here’s what I want to have in my house or in my neighborhood or my jurisdiction. So, I think that’s what gives most hope. It’s not so much of a centralized system that it starts to be broken down. I think that gives me hope. And again, it’s exciting to think about.

Wes Ashworth (40:22)

No, I think that does give us a good sense of optimism and possibility. I like the way you phrase that, just a prosumer, I think that’s what you said. I think too, as you look at the general public, I think really wanting to be a more kind of informed consumer, knowing what’s happening, what’s going on, and we want more control. So, I think that trend will obviously go along with that as well.

As the technology gets better, deployment gets better, and acceptance gets even more. That it sort of naturally fits into the way we’re leaning anyway, too. So, agreed a lot of hope there are a few questions as we get closer. What’s the part of your work at Energy Storage Canada that brings you the most joy?

Justin Rangooni (41:07)

Well, I think it’s working with my team. So, we just did our conference. So, we had a fantastic the team did a fantastic job. We all kind of came together because we’re scattered across the country. So, it was nice to bring everyone together, but the teams were fantastic. So, I’ll give a shout out to our VP Leone King, our Senior Director Andrew Thiele, our person out in BC, Michelle Mungall, we got we mentioned Robert out in Alberta. We got our membership lead, Jamie George, and we have our new communications coordinator, Liz Cook. They’re all fantastic. The best part of the job is working with them.

Wes Ashworth (41:44)

Yeah, always comes down to the people. So, coming out of that conference, what was your favorite part, biggest takeaway? What was memorable for you?

Justin Rangooni (41:52)

It’s just like the optimism. It’s just like, okay, we’re here, and it’s going to get bigger. I like that idea. So, as an association, we want the association to be bigger. We want the sector to be bigger. So, it’s just that kind of thing that we’re just getting started. And we’ve seen a lot of momentum the last few years, but jeez, there’s so much more that’s coming, which is really exciting.

Wes Ashworth (41:53)

It is, it’s as you said, it’s here, it’s established, but it’s also still early on, there’s still so much more to go, which is, that’s the exciting part, right? Who or what inspires you to keep pushing forward in this space?

Justin Rangooni (42:23)

Oh, that’s a good one. So again, obviously, I know it sounds cliché, but these are your kids, right? I look at my kids, I’m like, what are we leaving them? So, working in the energy storage space it’s a good place to work. You feel good. You’re trying to make things better in terms of keeping the grid cleaner, keeping the grid affordable, and keeping the lights on.

So, you do it for the next generation, which is what kind of keeps me motivated. And what I love about energy storage right now is that it’s politically neutral. It doesn’t matter what side of the political spectrum you’re on; everyone seems to use storage to understand its value. So, to keep it at that level, that’s our motivation. Can we make sure that no matter what, the government’s gonna change, you’re gonna come and go, but we’re all gonna see storage as an important tool that needs to be used? So again, those are the kind of things that keep me going.

Wes Ashworth (43:10)

Yeah, it’s good. I love that. Final question. Just final words of wisdom, parting thoughts, anything else you want to leave the audience with?

Justin Rangooni (43:18)

Listen, we’re always on a course. if you’re interested in the sector and you’re in the energy space, look us up. Join us. There are over 100. We keep growing every day. It’s so exciting. It’d be great to have you a part of it, part of the conversation, helping us navigate what’s coming up next. So, it’d be great to have you, a great part of the Energy Storage Canada community.

Wes Ashworth (43:39)

Yeah, awesome. With that, we’ll wrap up. Justin, thank you for joining us and sharing such an insightful look at energy storage in Canada. To our listeners, thank you for being with us today. You’ll find links in the show notes to the association and all that as well. You can find all those links in the show notes, where you can learn more about Justin’s work and Energy Storage Canada.

If you enjoyed this conversation, please subscribe to the show, leave us a rating, and share the episode with a friend or colleague. We’ll see you next time.