Green Giants – Episode 76

Emily Easley (01:28)

Well, I mean, so I was born and raised in the oil and gas, really, the oil business and professionally had a couple of internships starting between college semesters. So, I was exposed to it. And then when Enron started to collapse, I studied the power business, I guess you could say, in college and then moved up to DC and knew I wanted to stay in energy. It was just a connection I’ve always had with my father and so many fellow Texans. But I was in the DC area at the time with a lot of Texans because it was the Bush administration.

The oil and gas business was at a peak point, people thought, right? And so, the opportunities were more in what we call transition now, but the technology was still really expensive. And I ended up through mutual connections, kind of ending up in the solar business, completely fish out of the water. And it worked to my advantage in some ways, just because I was so eager to learn and try to understand just the basics. And then I was in charge of really all of the relationships within the industry and how we were going to bring everybody together.

So, I got to start to understand from a macro view these various buckets of how they all come together. But I would always ask the question, because we were working with regulated electric utilities, is how does this relate to oil and gas? Because I fundamentally didn’t really know the ins and outs of the oil business. I just knew it from the investment side, definitely not from the technical or services side, which I have such great appreciation for now, over 20 years later.

The renewable business, just, there was just such a big divide between the two industries, not just in the technologies, it was the culture of both industries, politically alignment within those industries tends to be similar within them, but very diverse on the other side. And then, when I would go back home to Texas to just visit friends and family, when people asked what I did, I realized how little they knew about what was emerging as this exponential growth. And in a sector that I didn’t, again, appreciate that not every industry was booming like that. But that was when the shale revolution was also taking off.

And so, it was just a little bit of curiosity. Okay, where is Emily going with this? But not a real interest or motivation to even want to learn until about a decade later, after I had really not only learned the different various technologies that were very solar specific and the different business models that were emerging, but I was seeing constant synergies and application of traditional business models on the investment side that were rolling into the renewable business which was making it a more commercial, viable business as it is today.

So, through asking the questions and trying to be open-minded and understanding these different points of view, I realized that there was just a huge gap in the lack of knowledge on both sides. And so that’s when I decided to go out on my own and work with my long-time contacts that are in that Texas community. And they had reached a point again, where they were more curious and motivated to better understand this renewable industry. And it started very basic, which is some 101 questions regarding the technology, the tax credits, and the markets. And it’s emerged now into very complex discussions that have had different themes every year. So, depending on where the biggest interest is, and connecting the two players.

Wes Ashworth (05:35)

Yeah, it’s really such a powerful vantage point seeing both sides up close. And I think it’s well needed, obviously, it’s uniquely positioned to you with Novus, and I love that you’re branded as the bridge, and I think it’s such a cool analogy. And I’ll use that sort of like look at the bridge and translator pieces of that. And you mentioned that too, just the moment where you kind of saw like this world really needs a translator between these two sectors, and seeing how that communication really sometimes can be a bigger barrier than technology or capital.

So, translator bridge definitely feels like the right words there. So again, you’ve spent your career in rooms where oil and gas and renewables don’t always speak the same language. So, what’s one myth that renewable folks believe about oil and gas and then I guess the truth behind it as well.

Emily Easley (06:31)

There’s a lack of appreciation for how we got here and what we rely on every day in our daily lives. And so, I always encourage my clients and anyone I’m talking to, to not be defensive because energy as an industry is critical for not just my daily home life, but every local economy, to the point where it gets into energy security, right? So, what I have such great appreciation for in the oil business is the amount of work that goes into boots on the ground, out in the field, 24-hour shifts, the safety that they have instilled over the many decades that this industry has had to learn some really hard lessons and how much progress that they’ve made in lowering emissions and what technology, AI, all of these optimization kind of solutions are doing for their business, right?

Wes Ashworth (07:32)

Yeah, no doubt. And I think kind of looking at both sides of that and clearing up those misconceptions. A really clear space for collaboration instead of judgment, which is, I think, what we need.

Emily Easley (07:42)

It starts with basic terminology, right? But then also kind of understanding that you have seen so many businesses that have transitioned or explored key areas of new markets that are not the core principles of their business. So, and that’s, it’s a lot of time, it’s a lot of distraction for and so this whole renewable kind of wave during the Biden administration, internally, and these oil and gas companies were excited. I mean, not at the top, right? Because your job is to make sure people are disciplined, focused on their day job.

And so, getting organized around that and then saying, know that there is opportunity out there, right? Beyond our typical business. know our shareholders or our investors, or our capital partners. They are curious about what our thoughts are because we have a trusted relationship. So how are we going to pursue that? And that I think is the very first step before you bring two parties in, because ultimately their job is to be offensive for their industries.

I mean, that is what their investors trust them that they’re the experts. So, I mean, I would say that the first step is that initial evaluation of, let me understand your business, because you can say oil and gas, you can say oil business, shale, I mean, any of it, is it services? But at the end of the day, I’m learning just as much as them are, just in, okay, what is it that you on a quarterly, annually basis have told your teams, these are our goals for the year, or these are our goals for the next 10 years, and then how are we gonna accomplish that? And then where is the opportunity to make more with less, with fewer resources, right? And that I think is kind of the beginning.

From that point, and this is historically, because I have had all oil and gas clients, and I still do, then, once we find a path forward that we agree makes sense to pursue, that’s where we bring in the new relationships. And it’s important because the two parties really, they’re not geographically located near each other. They may both be in Houston, but they don’t know each other, don’t know how or why they would have that conversation, and they may politically be on totally different sides. Which, again, I tried to move back to Texas, was very quickly moved back up here. I have learned how to do this dance in Washington, to really not engage in it in a business setting, to a great extent and focus on the bottom line.

But because there are so many people now, professionals in this industry. There is a lot of value in knowing I have trusted decade-long relationships with those who I know will be honest, will come to the table with solutions, will follow through, and meet timelines. And so, new relationships are just, it’s a different world when it’s not a handshake.

Wes Ashworth (11:01)

Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about that, the relationship, or if you’re advising either side of that, right? If you talk to a lot of oil and gas, shale companies, any like phrases or words, you would tell them to kind of retire when they’re talking about energy as a whole, or if it’s the other side, on the renewable side as well.

Emily Easley (11:19)

I mean, to retire, wouldn’t go that far. will say that I do spend a lot of time where if it’s a, ESG is over, or energy transition is over, or now the solar industry, because of what’s happening politically, is not gonna be sustainable. And the reality is, will it look different? Does it already look different? Yes.

What we know is that there continue to be technology solutions for on-site power, which is what renewable power can be. You can have it out in utility-scale fields. That’s becoming more and more complex with a number of different regulatory dynamics. But this hybrid solution doesn’t have to be either or, and it doesn’t have to be all of the above.

It has to be with the resources at that location and what other attributes and how can you collectively come together to find a solution that makes sense to ultimately the lowest cost, most reliable and lowest carbon intensity possible. I mean, and because I would say too that that is a factor of the finger pointing on any type of oil and gas operations when you don’t run that business and don’t understand the physics and the chemistry and everything related to hydrocarbons. What do they say? Don’t throw rocks at glass buildings, right?

Wes Ashworth (12:59)

Yep, it’s a good perspective. And I think to that point, kind of making assumptions, pointing the finger, that’s never gonna result in a great path forward.

Emily Easley (13:09)

Well, and you’ll miss it. You’re gonna miss an opportunity. I mean, the reality is, even though there are a lot of extreme changes in Washington, there is still a great opportunity in the energy business. It’s challenging to find those, but if you can navigate and look beyond the policy implications and short-term windows, understand that 10 year runways just don’t, they don’t exist in Washington.

So, how do you plan for that? And then also take the opportunity to go after these new booming markets like data centers, for example, or AI solutions. And how does that fit in collectively and ultimately make you a more profitable business in the long term?

Wes Ashworth (13:58)

Yeah, and we talk a little bit about that, sort of the storm hitting every grid planner’s whiteboard right now is an explosion of data center power demand and what it means for the transition ahead. So, data center power demand, obviously accelerating fast, global data center electricity use is projected to more than double by 2030, largely driven by AI workloads. So, when you talk to hyperscalers or real estate developers, how do you describe to them where the electricity challenge really lies? Is it generation, wires, or local grid rules that are something deeper they often miss?

Emily Easley (14:30)

Well, and so it’s interesting because now there’s a new audience and market that’s kind of come to the table. And they’ve been there all along, commercial real estate has, right? And it’s kind of a little bit of the new unknowns. So now you have producers, you have midstream companies, and then you have the real estate that it takes to pull the projects together. And these commercial real estate kinds of companies I’m starting to see are Dallas-based companies, right? I mean, it makes so much sense. And all along, we used to have some interesting relationships with the utility, with a big commercial real estate, not just a developer, but like the owner of all of the buildings and what do we do when your tenants shift, right?

And so you have all these converging factors that I think are really interesting. As it relates to data centers, I was just having this conversation where it’s, what is more complex than what we think we’ll need in the next decade is what was planned and what will actually get built out, both on a consumption side as a customer and on a generation side. So, you’re having a complete reallocation of what projects as renewable developers and owner operators are we going to double down on to these new deadlines?

What does that mean for what we projected, right, that we were going to install and have generating these utilities that we’d already been negotiating? So, you kind of have to just take a step back at both and say, what is a scenario that is a kind of exponential, and also potentially possibly might not happen. The other thing that I think is pretty fascinating is that you, as with any of either industry, this is not in my backyard. So, being located, we’re talking about in Virginia and in Loudoun County, and I was out again at the softball fields. I told you yesterday, looking around again, and I’m starting to learn these logos and going, wait, that’s where, you know, my Texas friends work. And so and so is the one that’s connected to this big Fermi data center complex in Amarillo, right?

And so, if you start to pay attention to the real announcements and what’s driving those to become a real investment opportunity, whether it’s this IPO that just happened or it’s the project itself at every stage, it gets to a place where both renewables, and oil and gas know this here in Loudoun County, there’s signs everywhere that are anti data centers.

They don’t want these big transmission projects. It looks like these megacities that are in boxes are those magnetiles that are popping up. And then, at the end of the day, what do you do with that real estate? If something, if these AI learning facilities or data center storage cloud ends up becoming more decentralized back to where the customer is. So that to me is like the most complex issue of it all.

Wes Ashworth (18:00)

Yeah, it’s super fascinating, kind of just how quickly that’s all evolving, especially with the data centers and the issues that it all creates. And it’ll be interesting, kind of like how that all shakes out going forward. And there’s a lot going on there. You’re kind of right in the heart of it there. And Virginia, as I am as well. And sometimes too, just from a timeline perspective, hyperscalers want power in 24 months, and projects often take 40 plus months or more to really come online.

From what you can see, like where can timelines genuinely be shortened, and just where is it pure fantasy?

Emily Easley (18:29)

I mean, I think it’s important to state it’s interesting to me because these are not new data centers, right? I mean, so we’ve had a decade of lessons learned that have been a lot of storage for cloud-based kind of services, I’d say, for government agencies or just in general, some of the big tech companies. I think the utilities have also learned a lot, and what AEP Ohio is doing, they’re now stating that publicly, we were successful because they installed a tariff for these, any type of facility that was going to need this generation needed to prepay for the power. And that’s real money out the door, right? So, I think if you start following these, it’s a regulated business for a reason. There is an emergent, like emerging, I call it the independent power producer 2.0, because it’s just blowing up in a different way than we saw early on. And, but at the end of the day, who is going to take the risk and write the check to cover the cost? That to me, it’s a real business, right?

And so, you start to look to those. I think that utilities often flock together and are rarely competitive, but oddly control the entire process. So, they look to each other. you’ve already seen, AEP is the investor-owned in Ohio, but also has a section in Texas and down in Louisiana. And so those regulatory commissions will start to figure out what is the way that we get this back under control. So, it’s not such chaos with all of the different paperwork that’s coming in, both from the buyer of the power and that wants to generate the power.

Wes Ashworth (20:21)

Yeah, being right there too, anything else, sort of strange or surprising lessons you’ve learned, just looking more into data centers and just what’s evolved there, anything maybe that the listener wouldn’t be aware of.

Emily Easley (20:34)

The way I look at it, data centers, AI is the sexy new term, right? I mean it’s just an industrial customer. So essentially understanding like, okay, well, what is the likelihood that that industrial customer, how long are they gonna be around? How long would they need services for? And it’s regulated in that way. But I do think we’ve done a lot of analysis with clients on what we could start to predict based on previous and successful or not so successful lessons learned by these utilities. And these community programs, whether it be a coupon or a discount, are all different ways that drive this.

So, it’s not a crystal ball, but it is certainly the information is there if you know what to look for.

Wes Ashworth (21:15)

Yeah, absolutely. And then two, the one thing I wanted to kind of go back and touch on is just we talked a little bit about interconnection queues, always a hot topic. I think Berkeley Lab found that only one in five projects that entered the queues ultimately reach operation. Recent projects wait around five years to get built and more. So, what does that attrition tell you about how we scope projects today and what upstream changes would actually cut the failure rate?

Emily Easley (21:46)

Well, I think it’s important, and I always state that the permitting issues and interconnection issues are the two biggest bottlenecks in industries, right? I mean, the midstream companies can be a sensitive subject that we haven’t been building pipelines because of permitting for a decade. now, I mean, think about the LNG projects.

It’s the same issue with the renewable groups and you see a lot of that around the politics. However, it’s not across the board. It’s so trying to figure out the, we’ve been talking about permitting reforms since, the Mountain Valley pipeline was trying to get approved. That’s in my backyard. And I believe in natural gas. I like natural gas. We don’t have enough of it on the East Coast for various reasons. So, I don’t know that there’s a real kind of silver bullet to it, but I will say that quality is the issue, and the process is bottlenecked because of the review process. I’m hopeful that there’s a platform out there that’s being developed that can help vet some of this to provide some feedback because ultimately, no one’s great their first time they do anything.

The second time was a little bit better. Those who become experts are getting stuck behind them. And that is really where the complication is. I mean, Wes, it’s what I was, a lot of these projects are just, they’re not, they’re just going to be stranded. How do you underwrite a project that is just an interconnection application? So that to me is like, it’s in some ways starting to maybe take care of itself.

Wes Ashworth (23:23)

Yeah, yeah. It’s such a complex issue. As you said, it’s been going on for a long, long time. And really kind of like behind every project delay, every frustrated developer is to me a deeper structural issue. So that invisible architecture of how we connect permits and price electricity. I think you’ve called power markets the early days of cell phone billing. I like that analogy. I want to unpack that a little bit.

So again, you compare it to the early days of cellphone billing, what’s the part of today’s market design that makes you laugh or cry the hardest?

Emily Easley (24:08)

It’s so easy not to look back, right? And so, early on, and I still do, I love reading the history of the energy business and know that I’m not an expert. I just know that I’m surrounded by a lot of really smart people on both sides who apply previous successful practices to new industries.

And the cell phone business, I mean, it’s very different in many senses, but I think, again, you can understand how these disruptive new business models, whether it had been Amazon in the early days, Netflix, cell phones, cell phone towers, how do you look to what either the winners or those that didn’t make it do was it could be human capital. People are typically the riskiest investment of all. And so, from where we go now, I encourage the renewable industry that the oil and gas business has been established. They understand headwinds. They understand different market structures and agreements. And there’s so much that can be learned from them that ultimately will accelerate you through a lot of these big headaches of where you are now.

Wes Ashworth (25:37)

Yeah, I like the comparison, looking at history and I agree. think you can learn from a lot of those mistakes, successes, those past things, and the reason why I think the bridge and coming together make a lot of sense going forward, and certainly can get a lot more done there. So, developers listening, we talked about this, it just gets stuck in bottlenecks, whether it’s interconnection or other things. What’s your crash course? So, the overlooked moves or things that you can see actually save time on permitting and approvals.

Emily Easley (26:04)

I think grassroots boots on the ground always. And we do so much remotely, but even just a simple site visit to look and see what you’re working with. I’ve heard about a lot of these stories where the project gets fully designed, not specked out, but you’re going out for bids. And then an executive does a site visit and he sees he sees the mountain that is going to cause the shading that technology, whether it be Google or we rely on these, but it’s the human eye just seeing it. Do you see anything that I don’t see that could have saved a lot of money and time?

The other is these roads and thinking about the O&M cost of just dirt and dust, all of those factors that go into the spreadsheet that end up driving that; the operating costs are important factors. And then just thinking through the job piece. We talk about how you are going to attract jobs to that location? What kind of jobs do you need? And I do know for a fact that the oil and gas community knows better than anybody else how critical that is and what they’re up against, right? As far as trying to get their project safely, not only up and running, but evaluating kind of where they build out, where the growth opportunities are.

Wes Ashworth (27:23)

Yeah, it’s a great playbook. I love how practical it is as well. I’m just thinking about that. So, one of the things you shared with me is, as you said, regulation comes when an industry has truly reached commercialization or when they’ve truly commercialized. And I’d really liked that thought and I’d love to hear more about it. What is the new wave of rules around renewable and storage kind of tell you about where we are in the maturity curve?

Emily Easley (27:55)

Right, I think you have to appreciate that there has been, and now there’s just a demand for more transparency around some of the carbon accounting as it relates to what’s driving the bankability of these projects. But as far as regulation, it means it’s meaningful enough here to there’s issues that aren’t being dealt with. I have heard, for example, that we used to not even 10 years ago, we wouldn’t underwrite decommissioning. We weren’t required to do that. States were not, and what is left? Stranded projects that have wind farms that are out in the middle of nowhere that which aren’t working. They may not be killing birds or operating, but the landowners don’t want them there. I mean, it’s no different from a cell phone tower or an oil rig that is abandoned.

And so, I think that that right there is, okay, I mean, no, we have a responsibility to account for the full life cycle of a project, then what happens to the equipment? And so, I know that the pictures of all of the wind blades and equipment in these graveyards are not, it’s probably exaggerated to an extent as everything does get, but it’s just a fact. It’s fiberglass. What are we going to do with it? And so, who’s responsible for it?

So, I think that’s where I see, I was talking while working with a client, Wes that, it said, what happens if you’re a restaurant, you run a restaurant business, and you just throw your trash out? You don’t make sure it’s thrown out, but you just can just throw your waste out, and you don’t take into account the cost. You don’t have to. I mean, that to me is where we are now.

And it’s just an operating cost for businesses, of anything that you use to produce your widget has a cost associated with it, as it should, because you sold it for a cost and you want to make sure you’re selling it for what it costs to make. So, I think that a lot of that is emerging, and then what hasn’t been commercialized. So, think about where the, if you, if you reach these different kinds of, elements of within a business.

Once you become that commercial and those costs start getting regulated, it does become more streamlined. Have you hit a plateau? Is it truly now an infrastructure asset class, which is yield-based and producing, but then how do you continue to grow? And so, I think that that’s what’s kind of interesting right now in the energy business, is trying to figure out where those pockets are, knowing that there’s so much that is kind of moving in different directions.

Wes Ashworth (30:51)

Yeah, absolutely. And at least, the perspective reframes regulation as a sign of growth, not a punishment. I think that feels better. no one loves regulation, but it’s a necessary part of it, and things evolve and change.

Emily Easley (30:57)

But positive reinforcement, right? Until you say it three times and they’re still not listening. I’m not talking about you, Wes, it’s my kids. But along those lines, I do think because energy is always this hot topic in the headlines. It constantly drives me crazy because we all want and need energy.

The real politics is not, it shouldn’t be the what, right? That’s for the businessmen and women, right? What it is, politics are there to ensure that we’re all kind of hopefully, working through in those innovative relationships and partnerships. But it’s such a fun topic for politicians to punch at and like, and ultimately, it is a political war. But it’s a political war within our country.

I mean, I’m like, what about if we all aligned and had some consensus on this one industry? We’re all going to work together, and it’s us versus them instead. But then you get into geopolitics, and that changes with every administration.

Wes Ashworth (32:14)

Yeah, very true. And I’ve said it a lot. If I could wave a magic wand, it would be to depoliticize energy and, again, to come together, working together. Energy is great. We all need energy. It’s only growing and will only increase and getting in our own way doesn’t make much sense either.

Emily Easley (32:34)

I know. Well, and it’s easy to go after, right? Because at the end of the day, you’re not attacking a person or saying that they do or don’t deserve X amount of funds, and it’s a technology. But I do think I wish there was more that was, well, and I think, and where do I think this is going based on the experience? I mean, I think the tech companies are saying it.

I think they know that they are so profitable in the business of storing and learning data. They also know we cannot sustainably think that we can do this forever with burning fossil fuels. It will come back to catch up. Our shareholders want us to stay committed to our environmental goals. So, because they’re producing a widget that we’re paying more for than we pay for energy. And there are emissions associated with that. I think from where those giants are, I think it is bringing the industry together just because they know what is coming.

Wes Ashworth (33:31)

Yeah, no, agreed that’s some hope on the horizon. I’ve seen that as well too and believe that kind of with this too. So, every transition has its proving grounds, one that’s still going through that, as carbon capture, one of those that sits right at the edge of science and scale, where the next phase of Decarbonization will either stall or accelerate. There’s a lot going on there. You advise on the power side of carbon capture, I believe, but where have you seen the economics start to make sense and what’s surprised you most about who’s making it work?

Emily Easley (34:19)

So, I have had a long engagement with the power side. But that exposes you to the business and the industry. And what I think is kind of the most interesting piece of policy from the summer is the utilization tax credit increase and knowing that storing carbon is a waste, a service of waste.

So, you see some of these big waste management companies getting into that business, it makes sense, right? So, but utilization makes it a commodity. It is actually taking something that has value that you have produced into the air and somebody is gonna buy it from you to make something.

Wes Ashworth (34:54)

Yeah, kind of getting into a little bit more direct air capture. Just critics say it’s too expensive, too power hungry to ever scale. From your perspective, what do they get wrong about that and what’s maybe still a fair critique?

Emily Easley (35:16)

Well, look, solar was too expensive and wasn’t reliable. And then you had what we had just in photovoltaics alone. We had concentrated, and we saw that so many different applications to producing that electron. Ultimately, the PV manufacturing that became reliable and scalable was thin film and then in the concentration of the PV panels themselves. I’ve seen DAC equipment, I’ve seen the executives get it up and running and then the plans, because these are modular, just like data centers. The whole point is for there to be efficiencies over time as we learn.

And so, I mean, I will be surprised if this doesn’t become a real industry. A, especially if we can consume an emission out of the air. You don’t even have to buy it. Somebody emitted it, and you don’t even have to put it. It’s not a point source. So, if you can have DAC equipment that is tied to making a widget, versus just sequestering it. I don’t know why that wouldn’t commercialize.

Wes Ashworth (36:41)

Yeah, I agree. I agree for sure. And as we get closer to the time, I want to hit on a couple more topics. I’ll keep it going. So, you spent years helping companies, investors make sense of technology and landscape, but transitions aren’t just about tech; they’re about people. And I always love to spend a little time on that. So, the next chapter of the story is about who actually builds and sustains the bridges and our path forward.

So, you said consolidation is coming, both oil and gas and renewables. How will that change the kind of talent companies need most?

Emily Easley (37:09)

I think that just workforce is a, it’s a challenge across the board. I mean, there’s, from what was so disruptive with the pandemic to remote working to now new platforms that have efficiencies, I think that companies are trying to evaluate, okay, well, how are we going to manage the workforce? With all of those factors and then what are the skillsets that we absolutely know that we need? We need to maintain and keep in-house, what can we outsource? And so, you and I were just talking about it with IT. And so, don’t have a great answer to your question, but what I do know is that there are some jobs that you just can’t outsource.

And there are also some jobs that you just can’t trust a platform to do. And so, I think that’s going to be the driving factor of how those decisions are made. And then the historical knowledge, you cannot put a price on historical knowledge. How many projects have you worked on where the appreciation and the value of historical knowledge are not recognized?

It’s not that they don’t, it’s not paid another month or pay this. It’s the fact that they already spent all this money learning, and it’s just out the door. So, I don’t know. I mean, what are you seeing as far as in your firm? I mean, you’re more attuned to the market dynamics than I am.

Wes Ashworth (38:33)

Yeah, it’s interesting. It is fascinating. You see the industry mature and the skills that matter most are kind of shifting a little bit from like pioneers to integrators, kind of just thinking about that. And then some of those tried-and-true things that we talked about a little bit, too, like trades aren’t going anywhere. Skilled trades, electricians, you know, you think about all the data centers, all the AI, all this, that electricians certainly are in huge need.

So those skilled technicians, I’ll tell anybody, College is great for those it’s great for, and professions where it makes a lot of sense for, but you can make a lot of money and have a very fulfilling career in trades and it’s needed and demand is only increasing. So that’s a big one. Then I think, oftentimes what we talk about too, just in this sector, like marketing, comms, PR people, you’re seeing that trend a lot more and them understand the importance of how we tell our story, how we get our messaging out there, how we present our brand and our services and what we’re doing, seeing all this evolution.

So, it’s always changing. It always changes. It always has, always will. But again, I think there are careers out there. You just have to stay attuned to where the market’s headed and shift accordingly. But there certainly are those opportunities. But trades, not going anywhere, for sure. That’s my take.

So, you’ve met some professionals before introducing them to, say, your oil and gas network. What’s your test for maybe spotting a real operator versus somebody that’s like, don’t know if I want to make that introduction? What do you see or how do you vet that out?

Emily Easley (40:21)

I mean, I think, we were a small industry early on. I mean, really. We talked about RE+. When that show, we had 500 people when I first pulled that together in San Francisco. It may have even been less than that in 2004. And so, you can see the track records of where people have been. And then it’s not to say that you can’t get into this industry, but it’s all about who you surround yourself with.

There are a lot of really successful people who have come from other industries who are bringing a kind of new life to this space. So, I think that the biggest one is if you think that, you know, if somebody says that this is going to be a gold mine, money doesn’t grow on trees. It just doesn’t.

So, that to me is if it sounds too good to be true, it is. and you just can hear what they’re saying and what brought them there. And then I don’t know. I wouldn’t say I’m always a great read personally. I like people, but I think professionally, it’s not that hard to see who is actually full of it or not.

Wes Ashworth (41:42)

Yeah, yeah, no doubt. So, we’ll end on just a big picture. So, you’ve seen energy go through cycles, crises and reinventions. You’ve also mentored the next wave of leaders as well and had, you know, those relationships as well. So always want to learn from that. But looking out. So next year, 2026, what’s the single biggest opportunity you chase if you were, you know, 25 years old, starting fresh and with energy today? What do you see?

Emily Easley (42:06)

My gosh, so many exciting areas. I mean, I really do. I think that the energy business, in my opinion, has really become exciting. just it’s techie. It’s got all of the attributes that relate to different ways that the next generation can add a completely different perspective. I just hope that they see it that way because in both renewables and oil and gas, those cultures are what brought the people. And truly, yes, renewables started with a lot of the climate value. And feeling very passionate about that. And now it’s commercialized. But then in the oil and gas business, these are boots on the ground, like multi-generational families that own land and are monetizing it.

And so, getting the business now, either on either of those sides, is your hope that they see it to be a continuing to grow opportunity for their careers.

Wes Ashworth (43:16)

Yeah, it’s a great perspective and I agree. think it’s a super exciting time just in energy as a whole. Just for all the reasons you said, it’s like techie, it’s got to get it, it’s growing, it’s changing, it’s evolving, lots of new technology coming out. And so, it’s an exciting time to get in there.

Thinking just about, let’s say, renewable energy, what gives you optimism about the future? So even with the timelines, bottlenecks, policy swings we’ve talked about, what gives you optimism?

Emily Easley (43:43)

Technology is here. I mean, we made it. And honestly, walking around the trade show, I mean, I remember it had to be 2014, possibly. One of the first times I went back to RE Plus after all of my time in oil and gas. And when you ask the question, how did solar costs come down? And it was in balance of systems. It was the equipment. wasn’t necessarily the panel itself. Last month, when we were in Vegas, it was these robots, platforms, and I mean, what trackers they were doing.

Dan Sugar is just such a pioneer, and they’re not only leading with kind of technology solutions, they’re owning kind of this lower carbon product where they have announced, procuring lower carbon steel. I mean, he’s in front of this. I hope the industry looks to what companies like that are doing with Matt Campbell. I’ve known him forever. He is with Terraform, and I met with him probably five years ago, and he was talking about, I left SunPower, now I’m doing this. And I mean, to see what they’re doing and they can build, they’ve got the time that they can build a solar project like half because you’re bringing robots in. It’s unbelievable.
The worst that happens in solar is if something breaks. So, I think it’s just an amazing time for this industry; it’s very tough to have a huge win like they had with the Inflation Reduction Act. That was an incredible day and an incredible time. But the reality is, yeah, business got tougher, but maybe tighter. And ultimately, did we need to kind of cut some of the projects that might never have been built anyway, because they’re stuck in these interconnection cues? Maybe.

I mean, I think it’s going to make the industry better, stronger, and more successful overall. How did it all kind of unfold on either side? Does it ever need to be so extreme? I don’t necessarily think. I hope we all have learned some lessons about what is possible in Washington.

Wes Ashworth (45:55)

Yeah, no, I love that. Just the optimism as a whole. And as mentioned, too, you mentored across oil and gas renewables. What’s your best advice for the next generation of leaders who want to build careers that last through cycles and politics, and everything else going on?

Emily Easley (46:11)

Learn as much as you can and do the work, and read. When I got into the solar business, I was number two and pushing papers, filing papers, doing all of the admin work. But in every, I would read what I was doing and learning what I was doing. And it was boring. I mean, we do boring stuff. We have to get from one place to the other. And I thought I was, right out of college with this management degree and where I was going places and I mean, talk about some humbling experiences where you’re like, I’m doing what I’m just filing papers, which now people don’t even file anymore.

Learn the business, learn who your customers are, and keep those relationships, those contacts, because it is amazing 22 years later that people still remember me as Emily Brown. And where have you been? And you know, and remember when you couldn’t say photovoltaics? I’m like, well, I still can’t really say it.

Wes Ashworth (47:15)

You said it pretty perfectly earlier; I think you got it. That’s awesome.

Emily Easley (47:19)

I know, but Wes, this has been so fun and I appreciate the perspective.

Wes Ashworth (47:22)
Yeah, no, perfect note to end on, and advice. It’s durable. No matter where the energy winds blow next. I love it. Stay curious, keep learning. Emily. Thank you so much. It really has been an insightful and fun conversation for our listeners, as always. Thanks for tuning in.

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