Green Giants – Episode 79

Wes Ashworth (02:18)

I love those stories, right? I think that some of the coolest ones happen that way. My journey is similar. I didn’t intend to do what I’m doing now, but you found it and you bloom where you’re planted. You find something you love and you’re passionate about, but I wouldn’t have been in my plans when it started. But yeah, a lot of the best careers happen that way, I think.

So now you’ve been in it, you’re doing great things with Fabtech, and I know Fabtech started salvaging electronics before pivoting to solar. Tell me a little bit about that. So how did that happen and what was the transition like?

Dr. Janette Freeman (02:46)

So again, this is my brother-in-law and my sister, and they had been refurbishing electronics, and they were basically salvage buyers. They bought truckloads of telephones and truckloads of other things and then fixed them up and sold them to the consumer or sold them to other buyers. And so, in that salvage business, they had contacts that eventually had some solar panels.

They had solar panels that, hey, can you do something with this? Now, Bob was an engineer and he was an entrepreneur. And so, he got some solar panels and basically figured out that they didn’t need too much, figured out how to sell solar panels. It went crazy. As soon as they got some solar panels and figured this out and they were selling on eBay, basically to consumers, these used solar panels, figured out, washed them, and fixed them. And then they had to do some other repairs on different panels. And they were getting a steady stream. And then they got a great contract with a manufacturer to bring in a whole lot of 250-watt panels. And so, they were just selling the heck out of these 250-watt panels.

So that’s how it happened. They went from 12,000 square feet to all of a sudden needing a lot more. And it was 30,000 square feet and then it was 50,000 square feet and it was 75,000 square feet. Solar panels take a lot more space than telephones. And so that was the combination of how they brought me on, is they brought me on to, because they did not have a lot of relationships in the renewable energy industry and they didn’t have a footprint in that industry very much.

So, they brought me on and I have, I guess, my skills are basically building relationships and doing some basic marketing and getting out there with messaging and marketing. And so, it just was a great fit, then that became my passion is learning all about it and then reaching out and working on LinkedIn and getting on shows and doing things in order to get that message out there.

And then of course, building partnerships and relationships all through the industry and building and growing this recycling business from the ground up to really build the partnerships and the structures so that I could fill the needs of the customers who needed recycling.

Wes Ashworth (05:14)

Yeah, I love that story just kind of how it evolved, right? And I think so many people when they set out, they want to have this very defined plan for their life or for their business, right? And we’re going to do this and that. And it really ends up that way. It’s like you find those opportunities, those moments where you pivot and find a new space or something that makes sense and falling into that kind of solar panel recycling and what it’s grown to today is really cool and incredible watching that happen. So, I always love those stories.

Dr. Janette Freeman (05:21)

I love those stories too. I mean, that’s the personal development side of me that I love so much. And from a personal perspective, I had a big business and a personal brand as a meditation teacher and doing all this. And then it was like, kind of put that over in this bucket and I turned that completely off to build this new thing, which was solar panel recycling and then came up with solar panel recycling evangelists.

So, it was an entirely different identity, but both parts of those identities, and we all have this, like we have so many different identities, whether it’s work and family, or some of us have worked two or three work identities. And it’s like how to integrate that and bring that together. Cause life doesn’t just come out with the straight roads. Those people who can walk a crooked road and realize that even though it’s crooked, it still comes together in a kind of perfect way.

Wes Ashworth (06:30)

Yeah. And to your point, I think it’s all connected, right? And, as much as sometimes we want to bifurcate it and have these little separate pockets, like it is all connected, and kind of with that too. So, I was really intrigued. You’ve got this PhD in consciousness studies, which is really interesting to me.

And I’m curious or how that has shaped the way you think about a circular economy or the human side of renewable energy and recycling just in general.

Dr. Janette Freeman (06:41)

Yeah, like we’re saying, it’s not a separate part of who I am. And so, it shapes everything. And especially my background in that education is all about human development and our happiness and the way that we live our lives. So, of course, it integrates into everything. Mostly, it integrates into the everyday life of how I do business and how I manage my own happiness and manage my own state. But it also ties into that deep need of wanting to make a difference. And that’s what’s so important to me about renewable energy. I’ve always been an advocate of solar and have had solar on my homes. And I’ve always been a believer in taking care of the earth as much as possible.

So, it really tied into it. It’s like this understanding that, as consciousness, as human beings that we’re all connected. What one person does affect the other person. We’re not separate entities. We’re part of a collective energy and a collective consciousness. So, the pieces that we play make a difference. And so that totally tied in. That’s why I’ve been happy here, is that I could feel like I was making a difference, and I could feel like I was contributing in some small way to the collective growth of our people. Our people or our planet or something.

Wes Ashworth (08:26)

Right. Absolutely. Doing good work. I think it’s so cool. I’d say it’s somewhat probably rare to hear somebody in a recycling focus speak about consciousness, but I think it is so important, right? The human, how we operate, how we make decisions, our mindset, our mentality, this is how we go about it. And recycling, I think the decisions you make play a big part in that, and how that all happens and comes to be.

So, I’m sure it’s helpful as you’re having conversations too and knowing how to get to the root of where somebody’s at and what they’re thinking and how they’re thinking.

Dr. Janette Freeman (08:58)

Yeah, and it’s great to be on a show where you’re bringing this part into the conversation. Most of the time I’m talking about how many solar panels they have and what their condition and where they are located. So, it’s kind of fun once in a while to have a deeper conversation.

Wes Ashworth (09:12)

Yeah, I quite enjoy it.  I think again that the connection between purpose and practicality, as you shared a little bit there. It’s a very unique lens. I want to dig into a little bit of that recycling landscape, what it looks like today, because I think the perception and the reality are still miles apart. And so, I want to try to shed some light on that.

So, you’ve shared with me one of the biggest misconceptions or biggest objections to solar is really the landfill problem. How big is this problem, really, and what misconceptions kind of frustrate you the most or are out there?

Dr. Janette Freeman (09:46)

Yeah, I mean, that is a big objection when community members are arguing not wanting solar, and they blame it’s all going to the landfill. The fact is, is that while it is an objection against solar, the waste problem in the solar industry is minute compared to other industries. Compared to municipal waste and coal ash, plastic, e-waste, oil, sludge, et cetera. The percentage of solar waste is extremely small. It is smaller than any of those.

So, the big objection does not really fly. It’s not really that much of a problem. Now, do we need to? Is it an issue? Yeah, it is an issue because solar panels are big. They don’t break down.

We don’t want to be mining new raw material indefinitely. In fact, we can’t. So, we’ve got to keep them out of the landfill, and we’ve got to be able to find solutions to recycle those solar panels. So, it is important but it’s not Armageddon.

Wes Ashworth (10:54)

Yeah, I like the way you frame that. And I think that that’s such an important context, right? And I think people do that often. If you want to prove an argument, you take a little isolated data point and kind of go like, well, solar has waste and that’s bad. And it’s like, yeah, but it’s a drop in the bucket compared to all the other, what it’s replacing, and all those sorts of things.

And yet the industry is still working on that tiny drop in the bucket waste and trying to make that better and improve. So, I think that it is really important to always frame up and think about. But people often kind of take this one little isolated data point and try to make a big fuss of it. And the reality is, it is not that. So, I appreciate you sharing that and agree.

So, one of the things that you shared with me is a little bit. I didn’t know, I wasn’t aware. I always loved learning something new, and I put it out there. So, you say right now, like 75 % of panels you recycle are kind of like damaged in new construction and not necessarily end-of-life decommissions. I thought that was a little surprising, but I guess why is it surprising? What does it reveal about the state of the industry?

Dr. Janette Freeman (11:56)

Well, it reveals the amount of growth that’s happening in the new build of solar. So, the amount of growth, and I don’t have stats on it, but everybody knows it’s just huge. And I’m talking, yes, commercial, but mostly utility scale. So, at the end of a utility-scale installation, there’s always going to be a percentage like 0.3 % or 1 % of panels that get broken in construction. So, those are 75 % of the jobs I’m doing. I don’t know what everybody else is doing, but basically, they always need recycling. There’s no reuse capacity on that because they’re broken glass by that point.

We are seeing end-of-life dig commissions where the panels are getting recycled. These 250-watt panels that are coming off old legacy sites and that sort of thing. And then we are also seeing weather issues, weather incidents that are causing the need for recycling. So, more hurricanes are happening, and hail and that sort of thing, weather incidents.

Wes Ashworth (13:06)
Yeah, absolutely. And then thinking about that, sometimes obviously panels can’t be refurbished and have to be recycled. But how do you decide whether a panel should be refurbished for resale or fully recycled? What’s the line between reusable and resalable?

Dr. Janette Freeman (13:22)

Well, first of all, it’s important to know that that’s always my first priority if a panel can get into the reuse market and get into that. And we can tell that by some basic facts. How old are those solar panels? What is their make, model, and wattage? What is the damage, if any, and how old are they?

And then I can pretty much tell. And there’s another important difference between reusable and resellable. And a lot of times, panels will come off a site and they are reusable. They really are. Say a 250-watt panel comes off, it’s been up for 15 years. Is it going to still work? It is gonna work. Somebody could use it. But it’s not resellable for a company like ours. There are a lot of costs to just bring it in to refurbish, wash, clean, test, and to market it, and to get it into the marketplace and then if you can only sell it for 10 bucks, it’s not gonna make sense.

So, that’s an issue. Now, the first thing somebody says is, well, those are good panels if they’re gonna work. Then they could go into the export market, where somebody can use those and that’s that sounds like a great idea but it still costs a lot to get it to those countries.

So, there’s this sweet spot where something is worth it. And then I will work with the customer to see how we can make it work, for example. There may be a sliding scale of how it works. For example, we pay for those. Those are good, resellable panels. I’ll pay you for those. And I’ll even pay the shipping to get them off of there, because those are valuable. I do the numbers.

There may be another situation, well, I won’t pay you for those panels, but I’ll pay the shipping. So, you’re going to save shipping, and you’re going to save recycling costs. And that’s significant. So that’s a win. And another situation might be, I’m not going to pay you for them, and I’m not going to pay the shipping. But you could pay the shipping, and I’ll take those solar panels.

So, and then there’ll be the next situation where I’m not paying you, I’m not shipping them, and nobody’s gonna want them, so we’re recycling those panels. Then I’m gonna work with you to get to the closest facility and see what we can do to save on freight and get those packaged up for recycling.

Wes Ashworth (15:26)

Yeah, it’s cool hearing just the hell that that sort of math comes into play and looking at those certain situations individually. And I would say, for me, I would think the appetite would be pretty high for somebody who kind of wants to get rid of them in a way. You could see a lot more of like, I don’t even want to make money off of this. I just want it off my hands and want it to be reused or repurposed or what have you. That’s I would think that, but I obviously don’t know it.

Dr. Janette Freeman (15:50)

That’s absolutely the case. That’s absolutely the case. A lot of people are like, yeah, can you just come and get these. If I can, I will. Yeah, we like to do that.

Wes Ashworth (16:17)

Absolutely. Yeah. It’s a win-win. Win-win for everybody around. So, dealing with, you’re communicating sometimes with like developers, EPCs, asset owners, about solar recycling.

What are the most we have a lot of those listeners on the podcast, what are some of the most common myths you hear from those groups? And then, if you want to speak to each one of those as well, too.

Dr. Janette Freeman (16:23)

Yeah, exactly. One of the things that we hear is that recycling isn’t even available yet, which always surprises me. Like, really? Like, where have you been? But there’s, it’s like you can’t recycle solar panels, and it’s not even available yet. No, the recycling infrastructure definitely does exist, and it’s growing. It’s changing all the time across the U.S. and globally. And so, the challenge really isn’t availability; it’s more about awareness. Building awareness around solar panel recycling has always been my mission. Just talking about it, I’ll talk to practically anybody about it. So, it’s like building awareness.

The other thing is that there’s a myth that recycling doesn’t cost anything. It’s like, well, come on, come and get these panels, and I’ll give them to you for recycling. And there’s a lot of Confusion on what recycling is. I get called all the time with they’ve got a bunch of broken panels and they want to give those to me because I’m going to be able to recycle those and make money, but what people don’t understand is that solar panels, because of the makeup of the solar panels, are very durable. made with several different types of material. You have to separate the material in order to benefit from it. And the separation processes are quite expensive. The equipment’s very expensive. It’s an expensive process to separate that panel. They just don’t know. And that there is a cost to recycle.

So, we’re not interested in taking your broken panels for free. I wish I could. The other thing is that it’s too expensive. So, without really researching, a lot of companies just don’t even want to. It’s too expensive to recycle. We’ll find the nearest landfill, or anybody who will take them.

The fact is that just in the last six years, I’ve seen the cost of recycling go down quite a bit. Recycling costs are dropping as technology is improving, as there’s more competition, and it will continue to work better as more markets are discovered for these recovered materials, and as that continues to grow. Plus, the other thing is that landfill costs are increasing.

So, landfill fees, transport costs are on the rise. Then there are other factors that we can talk about later. The costs, the unknown, the future costs, like the costs of regulatory risk and reputation risk. Anyway, so that’s one. Another thing, another one is that used panels have no value, panels do have value. And many of those panels will still be producing 80%, 90 % of their original power and output. And those can be reused, and those can be repurposed.

Now, we could talk about the used panel market. I’ll just say this. Many people are probably aware, the price of new panels in the last two, three years has gone down considerably. We were just infused with solar panels into the marketplace. And so, pricing went really low, and the reuse market was completely dumped. So, while we were bringing in, four years ago, we’re bringing in lots of panels for reuse and getting them repurposed, the market just dumped because why would somebody buy our used panel one for a few dollars more, they could get a new one.

So, that’s been a challenge that we’ve been dealing with but now the price of panels is going back up and the reuse market again is having a resurgence. So, I’m actually happy that there could be some use because it’s a shame when there are so many used panels coming off that really are good panels and we’ll give another 15, 20 years, that they couldn’t be used by people and they couldn’t be some inexpensive solar taken advantage of.

Wes Ashworth (20:36)

Yeah, I love those good quick points and clarity and some of those myths and yeah, obviously sounds like myth busting is almost a part of your everyday job description and I agree. Education is so important, right? And getting the right information out there. So, you’ve painted a clear picture of kind of where we are. I want to shift care a little bit into the economics because for most companies, the decision to recycle comes down to dollars and risk. I think we’re all familiar with that. But you obviously said that there, too, sort of recycling costs money.

It makes some companies hesitate. How do you help them just see it not as maybe a cost center but as a risk mitigation and brand opportunity?

Dr. Janette Freeman (21:08)

Yeah, recycling does cost money, but not doing anything or doing the wrong thing can cause a lot more problems and can be a cost. One is regulatory risk, and possible regulatory risk. Lots of new state and federal rules are emerging quickly. And so, by being compliant now can prevent penalties later.

For example, solar panels, thousands of solar panels, let’s say you could put them in a landfill, and you make the choice to put them in a landfill versus get them recycled. You think you saved a lot of money a few years down the road. Those are still tracked to the company.

I think the bigger thing is reputation risk. I don’t think there’s a large company out there that would want a newscast story doing a story on their company landfilling thousands of solar panels. So, if you don’t want a news story talking about it, then you probably shouldn’t be doing it because there’s always going to be a risk. So, the reputation risk for investors and companies is very important, and to be in the renewable industry, we are talking renewable energy and circularity all the time.

So, you don’t want to be a company that’s landfilling so many of the solar panels. So, I know that there’s still a lot of landfilling that takes place. And I also know that there’s a lot less landfilling taking place now than there was five years ago. So that’s a good sign.

The other thing that makes it important, it’s not just the landfill, is that we cannot mine these raw materials indefinitely. There’s a certain amount of silver, right, and copper, and we can’t continue to mine that and then throw away those good resources in a landfill, and have to be mined over again. So, to me, the bigger issue is using those materials again and again and not just expecting to pull those out of the earth forever. It won’t happen.

So, I think that that more and more and more companies are making the decision. Now, in a conversation with Robert over at SEIA, he’s over the recycling program. We were discussing this one day and he reminded me that this industry really is the first industry that has gotten ahead of its waste issues all on its own, without being legislated to do that. So, the industry itself is self-managing and self-leading by taking care of handling some of these waste issues now. Building the infrastructure to handle it, the recycling industry and infrastructure are expanding. And it’s expanding not because of government is expanding it. It’s expanding because of the market. There’s money to be made. There has to be money to be made, or it won’t grow.

So, I’m proud of this industry to tell you the truth, cause we’re not that old, and yet we’re really thinking about a circular economy already, and how we can be responsible for our end of life.

Wes Ashworth (24:13)

Yeah, I love that. The industry is already leading the way and doing the right things without being required to. But yeah, I like shifting that mindset from the overall value, obviously risk mitigation, brand reputation, obviously just doing the right thing. So, we talked a little bit about landfills.

One of the things that landfills themselves are now refusing is panels. Curious just how that has shifted the recycling conversation? Does it give you hope that maybe the market will solve this faster than regulation, as you started to touch on there in your last answer?

Dr. Janette Freeman (24:51)

What gives me hope is that many landfills are refusing solar panels by themselves, right? Especially in highly dense populations like up in the Northeast, where they can’t have, they don’t have large landfills for one thing. And then in California and other places and then Texas just came out with some legislation, which was shocking, that landfills, they’re not gonna be able to landfill solar panels, so legislation takes a long time to take place. And so, the landfills themselves are doing that. And then I also hope that, I’ve heard of this, I can see a solution where the counties that manage landfills, provide recycling services for solar panels that come in. So, there could be a charge right there at the landfill and then they could downstream it to a local or the closest recycler.

So, I can see that sort of situation happening as well, where they end up being a facilitator to make sure they get recycled, which is a useful solution for homeowners and the residential market with smaller-scale solar panels that they need to get rid of and they don’t know what to do with them.

Anyway, it’s I think it’s like any new industry, like if you had a new business, you’re constantly figuring out what you do next and how you solve the next problem, right? And so, in a little more macro way, this industry itself is doing that, too. The industry is made up of human beings, people, and corporations. And so, we’re all kind of finding problems and trying to find solutions and continuing to work to find those solutions.

So, that’s happening before a government is going to tell us exactly how we’re supposed to manage it.

Wes Ashworth (26:24)

Right, absolutely. And it’s always a good reminder. I’ve said before that, if you wait and wait and wait for a perfect solution, you’re just never going to get anywhere. Nothing’s ever going to happen. You have to start somewhere. You’ve got to start today. And then it slowly is, like I said, it’s going to mature. Things are going to happen. Innovation happens. Legislation changes. People change. And it gets better and better and better. That’s how industries evolve.

I think sometimes we get so stuck on like we want this perfect solution today, and want it all to be perfect and done and it’s just not practical. So, it is important that, hey, accept where we are, we’re doing some great, great things that should be celebrated. We’re making great progress every day. And as you said, it’s of short time in how young the industry really is. So, it’s cool to see that.

Obviously, the economics are evolving quickly. There’s also the bigger picture of just how the entire solar recycling ecosystem is changing around you. So, I know when you started, that not too long ago, but there were only three to five solar panels, specific recyclers in the country, know, in the whole country, which is crazy. Now the space is expanding rapidly, but what’s maybe the biggest shift you’ve witnessed in just five years?

Dr. Janette Freeman (27:51)

Well, it’s expanding rapidly because it needs to. So, there’s just been a lot of publicity about this being a growing industry. So, what we’ve really seen are recyclers that were already like e-waste recyclers upgrading equipment in order to take solar panels in. So, we’ve basically seen a lot of expansion in recyclers that are now marketing to solar panel recycling. And then we also see other companies that are starting and investing in becoming a solar panel-only recycler. So even though when I started, I wasn’t an expert, I was just trying to find some solar panel recyclers that could handle this. And so there really weren’t very many. And the time we were partnered with just one of them.

So, now it’s great to have a lot more options. And we haven’t even seen the need yet. Like right now, we have a lot of solar panel recyclers, probably more than the panels that need to be recycled. But there’s going to come a time when you imagine only one large utility site that needs a million panels recycled. That takes a regular recycler all year to do. So, it will increase. There will be a greater need for recycling. And I’m sure that the demand will drive that recycling expansion as well.

So, it will be important for customers to start having recycling partners that they work with, work with me, because I could find you the best ones. But I’m saying, you want to be able to have a relationship because there will be a time, and it’s already starting to happen, where you can’t get your panels recycled for another month or two because they’re filled, they can’t take any more and that will be more normal than not in the future.

So, it’s good to start having a relationship where they know you, you’ve done business with them, you’re going to have a priority to do business with them again and that way you can get your solar panels recycled when you need to and get them off-site. So, it’s important to build those relationships early before you need them.

Wes Ashworth (30:09)

Definitely, absolutely. It’s one of the things, yeah, before you need them, that’s a key. It’s like when you need them, that’s the hard time to go and try to develop a relationship and find somebody and start those conversations early for sure. You touched on a little bit, just critical minerals, recovering those, and obviously, we can’t mine those forever indefinitely.

Are today’s recycling technologies advanced enough to start recovering those critical materials and minerals like silver and copper at scale? Or are we just scratching the surface? Tell us a bit about that.

Dr. Janette Freeman (30:37)

Yeah, no, there are some different technologies that are out there. One technology, which is an early technology, is still used. It’s shredding the solar panel, separating, getting the aluminum off of there, and then going to a smelter to pull out these more precious materials. And that’s good. And then there are some more advanced technologies, which are in the separation process itself, which are cutting off the glass and then being able to shred and then separate that copper and silver right there before a smelting process is necessary. And so, it’s getting a higher degree of that critical material than it would before.

Again, I’ve spoken with other engineers and developers who hope to have that even better. And so, no doubt it will. So that will continue to be an important part of keeping the cost down of recycling is being able to gain and to keep the value of those precious minerals, materials.

Wes Ashworth (31:42)

It’s cool to see, I guess, that technology is evolving and becoming more readily available. Yeah, and hopefully fewer people thinking like, oh yeah, you can’t do that. You can’t recycle them. You can’t recover the minerals and those sorts of things. So, it is happening. It is evolving. A lot of really cool things are happening out there.

One of the keys to success, I think, is making it easy, right? And I think if you know, it’s extremely difficult for a company to recycle a panel, and it’s cumbersome, and it’s all this sort of stuff that obviously you’re going to have a lot of resistance to that. So, how do you make it easy for companies, large or small, to recycle?

Dr. Janette Freeman (32:14)

I love that you asked that. That’s just been a thing that I’ve personally wanted to make it really easy to deal with. To deal with me is to make it super easy so that someone can tell me what they have and I manage their project all the way through. So, they’re not having to be turned off, turned on to somebody else who’s going to manage the freight and somebody else is going to manage something else that I can get all the information real quickly, I can get quotes to them, I know what we’re doing, I manage and can take care of where it’s going and the logistics and can give them packaging guidance information and hold their hand all the way to the time they get their certificate of recycling.

So, I just want it to be easy. So, it’s really not that hard, I mean, whether they’re going to me or somebody else. The hardest thing is when you’ve never done it. And I’ve talked to so many project managers and people out on site and even in other roles in the company. They don’t even know the questions to ask, right? But finally, someone tasked them with getting these recycled, so I don’t even know where to start.

So that’s been great. I just tell them; you don’t need to know a dang thing. I will ask you questions. You will give me answers and we’ll know what you have, what make and model they are, where they are, and I’ll tell you how to palletize them. And we’ll get those out of there. It’ll be quick and easy and painless, and then you’ll know how to do it next time.

Wes Ashworth (33:26)

Yeah, trust the expert. They know what to do. You don’t have to know what to do. You just have to know the right person. Yeah, back to your point of relationships, right? That’s an important thing and getting those early. And I’m sure like one of the biggest barriers is really like awareness and that, like knowing where to start, what to do. So, I appreciate you sharing that perspective. And you’ve given us a wide-angle view of the industry. I want to zoom in a little bit on you, just your leadership, your philosophy, how you sustain momentum in a space that’s just starting to really find its footing. I am always very intrigued by any sort of stuff.

So, your mission is to keep solar panels out of landfills. How do you sustain that sense of mission when the scale of the problems, with millions of panels coming down, it can feel overwhelming, I’m sure, it’s still getting there, evolving and maturing. How do you keep that passion alive?

Dr. Janette Freeman (34:32)

So that’s a great question. I mean, I don’t get up in the morning and worry about whether panels are going to the landfill. I get up in the morning, and I start. I always like to start my day with intention. And I believe that maintaining a personal mindset is the originator of everything else. And so, my purpose is to live with joy and happiness truthfully and to make a difference.

So, it’s like that’s more important and it leads everything. I talk about mindset skills all the time and everything that I’ve done for 30 years basically has been on developing mindset and teaching mindfulness and those types of things. I think this industry is challenging. My perspective and I’m very entrepreneurial, and our company is a small company and constantly changing and moving. And there’s been plenty of times where I thought, like when the reuse market died, well, that was, I was mostly doing reuse, and it went away.

So, it’s like, okay, my goods are not dependent on only one stream. I’m here to prosper and be happy and to make a difference. And so, if not this, then what? And then that really forced me to focus completely on recycling. But because of that, I was able to build wonderful, strong partnerships all over the country with recyclers, with processors, working with logistics teams, and build these great relationships to be able to help my end customer to be able to get their panels recycled at the lowest price and at the closest facility to them.

It’s like, to me, this is the biggest challenge, as it’s called, the solar coaster. Living on this solar coaster, it’s like, okay, one door just closed. And we’re dealing with that big time in the renewable industry. Everybody’s like, there’s nothing consistent. We can’t depend on anything. So, I wind it back to the mindset, how is it that I can live with grit? If one door closes, how do I find a door that’s open? There’s another door open. And then the practice, the great emotional intelligence skills of mindfulness, to be able to calm our own stress, to be able to live in the moment, to be able to bring intelligence to the situation that is at hand by not being reactive and learning to respond better.

These mindset skills are key to living in a changing environment, an environment that’s changing all the time. We have to learn how we can live in the middle of a roller coaster and yet still drive something forward.

Wes Ashworth (37:22)

Yeah, I love that focus on mindset so much. it’s funny, obviously very familiar with the solar coaster and of course the ups and downs. I hadn’t maybe made that connection between the leaders I talk to in the industry are some of the best leaders I’ve ever met in my life. Just mindset mentality, they are positive, they are solutions-focused, they have that a lot of times.

Let’s pivot. still going to do it. We’re good. We’re not giving up. We’re going to make a difference. And maybe it’s funny. It’s like people who have made it and done really well probably do have a lot of that mindset and ability. But that connection is really cool to make. And I think it’s so important. Especially in an industry like ours, very purpose-driven, but also has a lot of ups and downs, a lot of challenges, a lot of headwinds or objections, and you have to kind of figure it out and keep your mindset intact and focused on what you can control and see the opportunities, right? And as I heard, I was listening to something today, and I’ve said it before, you’ll find what you’re looking for. If you’re looking for it, that’s what you’re gonna find.

So, a little bit of your career prior to, so before Fabtech, you spent 20 years leading nonprofits and doing great work. How is that? Maybe leadership experience helped you navigate the renewable energy industry? Maybe we just started to touch on it, but anything else to add there?

Dr. Janette Freeman (38:20)

Yeah, I think what we were just saying is exactly right because I was a founder, you know, I founded spiritual communities and did a lot of different things. And so, it’s that same mindset stuff that we’re just talking about is it’s those mindset skills of not giving up, and if this door isn’t opening, looking over here. And of course, because my work was specifically about mindset and teaching spiritual principles and meditation and that sort of thing, that had to carry into everything that I did. It’s like I couldn’t sell mindfulness by being a chaotic, crazy leader.

Wes Ashworth (39:33)

Yeah, proofs in the pudding, right?

Dr. Janette Freeman (39:37)

Yeah, exactly,

Wes Ashworth (39:39)

Let me ask you this question. So, with all of your experience and skills and mindset and mindfulness, the period that we’re in right now, uncertain a bit, shifting, policy changes, those sorts of things, for a leader or anybody in the industry that’s listening right now, that maybe is just having a tough time, they’re having trouble staying positive or feeling hopeful. What sort of advice would you offer to that individual?

Dr. Janette Freeman (40:03)

I think the most important thing is that we have to learn how to manage our own personal state as the first course of action. We say that stress makes you stupid and it does. If you’re in a stress state, you do not get information to the frontal lobe, and you do not get good ideas, and you react.

So, the first thing is always developing, get a meditation app, really, get some help because you can learn to calm your system down, calm your stress down and learn to live in the moment. The other thing I believe, and I believe this, and it’s helped me so much, is that most of us all the time, we’re always going to the future or the past. Our head is going to the future and the past. And when we’re in times of change and transition and stress, our thoughts are fear-based, and they’re going to an unknown future and there’s nothing to hook onto. And so that causes more stress and more stress. And when we learn to just let the cares of the day be enough, stay in this mode, what can I do here? What can I do today to be able to solve something or to be able to make a decision and be able to move forward?

And the more we learn to stay in the moment and to be able to stay calm in the moment, the better our futures are going to turn out to be, instead of worrying and projecting into the future. Now that is a mindset skill. It doesn’t mean that we don’t envision, we don’t plan, we don’t have goals, but we make much better decisions and much better insights and have a greater vision for the future when we are in a calmer, non-reactive state.

Wes Ashworth (41:50)

Yeah, that’s so good. I love that so, so much. I’ll listen to that over and over again, probably. I want to end just kind of looking ahead a little bit, just to where the industry’s headed, what the next decade could look like. If you look ahead, 10 years, 2035, you kind of get this first massive wave of utility-scale projects that’ll hit end of life. What does the recycling landscape look like for you in that horizon?

Dr. Janette Freeman (41:51)

Yeah, I mean, I obviously think there’s going to be more recycling centers, and I think there’s going to be a lot more organized pickup locations, that’s more for residential solutions. I also think there’s probably going to be some sort of on-site portable separation equipment or something. When you start having a million solar panels off a site, it’s not going to make sense to transport that many panels to one facility.

So, I can imagine some sort of preliminary separation or something like that could happen on a large scale. So yeah, that will continue to grow and expand. And again, with other things that we’ve talked about, landfill banning and residential solutions are a whole other ball game, but there needs to be smaller local drop-off points and that sort of thing. So, I believe that there will be a lot more solutions, probably things we haven’t even thought of yet.

Wes Ashworth (43:12)

Absolutely, without a doubt, there will be. It’s cool to think about the future and obviously plan for it. Thinking about, if you could change one thing, maybe how solar developers plan their projects today, thinking about the future, what would it be to ensure a more sustainable end of life tomorrow?

Dr. Janette Freeman (43:12)

Budget. Hello? Yeah, including, I mean, that’s just really basic, including budgeting for recycling early on. That was not really in the plans before, but if it is, there’s money to pay for different things. When it becomes an acceptable cost and it’s budgeted for, then it doesn’t become such an issue.

Wes Ashworth (43:30)

Yeah, absolutely. Budget early. You bring people like you involved in the conversation early as well, too. It’s that planning and being proactive, not waiting until it’s time and you’re like, man, I’ve got to do something about this. It’s tough at that point.

Any other kind of future changes or trends in the industry, things that you’re excited about? Like what’s giving you hope right now?

Dr. Janette Freeman (43:55)

I tell you, the thing that’s given me the most hope is that companies are planning for recycling. I know that’s kind of boring. I’ve been saying it the whole time we’re together, but it does give me hope. I’ve seen huge growth in just five years, and I love that I have people reaching out to me all the time who weren’t recycling before, didn’t think about it, and now it’s just what they’re going to do. So that gives me a lot of hope.

And again, I also have a lot of hope right now about reuse, because I love, love, love reuse. And our company has a good market for used panels, and we love seeing customers who are coming in now and want used panels. So that makes it more fun for me, because now I can bring in more used panels. So, I always like to get them into the reuse market where possible and I’m happy that we’re going to be able to do that again.

Wes Ashworth (45:10)

Yeah, absolutely good stuff. Final question, just does anything else you want to share advice you want to give, anything about recycling? Just wherever you want to go, anything you didn’t get to share that you want to share. I’ll give you the floor and take it away.

Dr. Janette Freeman (45:22)

All right, well, if I were going to share anything, it would be with new people coming into renewable energy and what I think is one of the most important skills that can help their career. And I would really encourage everyone to develop mindset skills. I think nothing helps us succeed more. And one of the things is, it’s like wherever you find yourself, bring your whole self to that opportunity. And even I’ve heard a lot of people say, well, I want to do this, but I’m in this job and I don’t like that.

Wherever you find yourself, you are there. Bring your best, and you will work yourself into a greater opportunity all the time. Stay flexible and humble and hardworking and you will absolutely keep moving forward. And then we learn to trust the turns in the road and know that the turns in the road may be taking us someplace new, but it could be something that’s even better than we even imagined.

Wes Ashworth (46:18)

Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. Great advice. Such a good, solid wisdom in that. And I’m sure that’ll sink in with a lot of people. So, with that, we’ll wrap up today’s episode.

But Janette, thank you for joining us and leading with both conviction and clarity. Your work at Fabtech Solar Solutions shows that solving the solar waste problem isn’t just about recycling panels. It’s about redesigning how we think about value, responsibility, and renewal.

To our listeners, thank you for tuning in. If this conversation sparked new ideas or gave you a different lens on clean energy or on mindset, I’d love it if we put some of that in there. Share it with a colleague or friend. Follow Green Giants wherever you get your podcasts. Leave us a review and help us keep amplifying the voices, building our sustainable future. And with that, we’ll see you soon.