Green Giants – Episode 83

Wes Ashworth (02:56)

It’s awesome. Thanks for laying that out. I love just when your background across finance and mobility really does, it helps give context to how you approach this work. But I love the part of just aligning passion and your interests and like what you wanted to do for sustainability in the world. That’s one thing that I love about this industry: any background you have, whether it’s finance or communications or HR or IT or whatever it might be, you can do that and align that passion in clean energy, clean tech, and sustainability, so I love that a lot.

As I mentioned in the intro, you’ve also held senior roles at Zipcar and Spartan. What from those experiences shapes how you think about scaling SparkCharge now?

David Piperno (03:36)

Yeah, I think that’s a great question, Wes. I think at Zipcar, really the importance of designing these products and systems that are clean tech, but that can scale.

And I think a big thing about that is focusing on the needs of the consumer or the need of the business. But you also have to do it in an economic way. The unit economics have to be there. Otherwise, you’re going to struggle to grow. You’re just, you have a solution that, hey, it’s a great solution, for the environment, but the business case and use case really aren’t fitting well, you’re going to be short, you’re going to struggle to grow.

So, I’ve always been a fan, really marrying those together. Because when you do that, the product itself will just grow. And it’s a great way to kind of tackle the sustainability challenges, right? But also, if the ROI, again, use case business cases there, that works really well. So, quite frankly, Zipcar was a lot of figuring that out, figuring the financials out. Figuring out, hey, which products really work well? Where can you make money, and where can consumers, where can businesses use this product, but also have a real-world benefit in addition to the sustainability aspect?

So, I’m passionate about that. I love that type of work, man. I love that type of work. That’s what gets me up in the morning and gets me doing financial models, it’s kind of figuring that stuff out. And at Spartan, the big thing for us there was that we went global. Spartan is in 40 countries. So just really learn the ability of how to operate across 40 countries. If you’re domestic first and then really that global expansion. So, we’re starting to do that at SparkCharge. We’re starting to, we’re in three countries now, US, Canada, and Mexico, and we’re looking to go international. Europe, we have a lot of demand in Europe, a lot of demand in the Middle East. And I think leveraging some of that background from Spartan will definitely kind of help scale the company. So, we’re excited about that.

Wes Ashworth (05:11)

Yeah, absolutely. It’s exciting for sure. And I think too, just the importance of the business side of the equation, the finance side of the equation, that yes, you want to make an impact, but ultimately, how you make the biggest impact and how you scale and grow is through a lot of that skill and expertise that you bring to the equation. And so, I love that. Love seeing as much as we can get at that in the industry and seeing those things happen and grow, like you said, globally and grow and scale and apply all those same principles.

So, let me ask you this: when you first joined SparkCharge, what was the biggest challenge that you saw and maybe what made you confident that it could be addressed?

David Piperno (05:56)

Yeah, so I think the biggest challenge I would say is that we were a pretty early stage when I joined. We had the technology, right? We had the initial proof points with customers, right? We knew that, the technology worked. The customers wanted this technology, but we really needed to formalize how to operationalize the model and scale. It’s a lot easier to do it in a pilot. A lot easier to do it in an R &D kind of setting where you can reiterate quickly, get the product out, get the consumer feedback, and make sure it’s all working.

But it took a lot of time. I mean, we just started standardizing operations, building the systems needed to have for that consistent, reliable deployment of the systems. And I think once we brought that structure to the model, the growth really followed. We knew that the demand was there, and we really started to see that growth follow. And I’ve mentioned before, but I mean, for us, I’ve been here for four years. Four years ago, we were much further along than the proof of concept, but we were learning how to operationally deploy and do that repeatedly. And for us to be in three countries right now and have coverage throughout the US is just a huge credit to the team at SparkCharge. They’ve really worked really hard.

Obviously, as a CFO, you have a part in that, and your kind of helping the team out do it. But the team’s done an incredible job. There isn’t a place where we can’t provide energy in all three countries, which is a big deal for our customers and customers come to us for that, which is awesome to see.

Wes Ashworth (07:34)

Yeah, it’s incredible. I love just the simplicity of standardizing and those kinds of things. I’m sure there’s a lot of like entrepreneurs listening and early-stage founders and stuff. And a lot of times, they do struggle with that piece of it. If you’ve got this great idea, you’ve got this great product or service, but then being able to really get things to where they’re standardized, they’re scalable, they’re repeatable. So, I’m sure a lot of great insight, but I’ve seen that too, and bringing someone in like yourself, the power that that gives your organization and allows you to really expand, so that’s awesome.

So SparkCharge as well. SparkCharge’s portable model. It’s a big shift from really in the whole charging conversation as a whole. How did that idea evolve and then how did customers just respond early on, because usually they’re maybe a little skeptical of something that it’s different?

David Piperno (08:19)

Yeah, 100%, 100%. And I think it, quite frankly, it just evolved from an unmet need. It’s kind of one of those things that, when you look back on, you say to yourself, hey why didn’t I think of this or why didn’t I think of this earlier, right? Because it was just a really obvious need, both on the, a little bit both on the consumer side, but particularly on the business side of how they’re adopting electric vehicles. And it really all came out of like the time delays and the cost of installed infrastructure and the low utilization. The low utilization challenges that came along with it.

Josh had this vision. He founded this in his dorm room and he said, look, there’s going to be these constraint grid issues. Not only in electric vehicles, but also in other industries and we need a better solution. And so, when you think about it from a customer perspective, around your question. Around, what are the challenges? What were customers kind of skeptical of? And I think a big thing was really the ROI. Their initial reaction, the customer’s initial reaction, is, hey, I’m going to get a better ROI installing infrastructure because it’s there. Not necessarily a solution that’s a bit more costly for the infrastructure, these types of things that can happen with the model. But once we had some proof points, the service took off. And I think it’s around how we structure the service, how we structure it as more of a pay-as-you-go model, eliminating upfront costs, upfront capital, those types of things.

And yeah, and I mean, look, when we have this service out there that’s alleviating the capital constraints, the question that we get is why would we even put infrastructure in at this point in time? We have SparkCharge, right? So, the ROI is definitely there and it’s really accelerating the adoption of electric vehicles for these companies.

Wes Ashworth (09:53)

Yeah, really cool. And I always love that the best companies come from solving a real problem and constraint and being that solution. I think it highlights how valuable flexibility can be, especially when infrastructure timelines are unpredictable and all the hurdles that we know that we have. That flexibility kind of seems to be the thread that runs through SparkCharge’s whole approach. And I want to explore that a bit.

So, just the model, your pay-as-you-go energy model removes that capex and long lead times as you just get a little bit about how does that work for a customer on day one, and maybe just through that like a bit of overview and just how SparkCharge even works, maybe for those that are unfamiliar.

David Piperno (10:40)

Yeah, no thanks, Wes. So first and foremost, there’s no upfront cost for a SparkCharge solution. We get fleets up and running, typically in one to two weeks. Sometimes it can be literally the same day. Now that we have a much broader coverage across these three countries, the deployment time is even quicker. And it’s incredible to see the impact. So, the impact that we have on customers when they need reliable charging. We deliver quickly. So, we’ll get a phone and we’ll say, look, I’ve got 30 EVs showing up and I’ve been working through my infrastructure, and it’s two, three years out, the CapEx is super expensive for us to deploy. What can you do for us? Exactly right, the flexibility comes into play there, where we deploy systems, it’s a pay-as-you-go model where you’re only paying for the service and the energy that you’re using. It scales up and scales down very efficiently, very quickly.

If you need more energy, you can get more energy literally the next day. If you need less energy, that’s totally fine. You’re not paying for that either. And that’s a little bit of the glory of the model. I think when fleets are adopting electric vehicles, there’s a lot of uncertainty in their minds. And they’re to themselves, well, I’ve got this huge CapEx commitment. I’ve got this huge time delay to do this. And we don’t know utilization. There are a lot of unknowns about it.

In this system, this model really takes away the concerns around those uncertainties. Where you’re gonna know your usage, with SparkCharge, and you’re only gonna pay for the usage that you’re using as well, again, with no commitments, no capital commitments, and pay as you go.

Wes Ashworth (12:09)
Yeah, it gives a really clear picture, a really straightforward setup that can make electrification feel far less intimidating for fleets. And you mentioned too, as you think just highlighted a bit ago as well, and we’ve talked about, that you can deploy in a week, sometimes even faster. That speed is incredible to me. What enables that level of speed? And a little bit more into how it all works.

David Piperno (12:24)

Yeah, so we are either completely off grid, right? Or we’re really leveraging the existing power at a location. So, when you think about that, there’s no need for, generally, for electrical work. There’s no need for, permits, installations, all of that type of stuff that takes time and money. And by the way, a lot of uncertainty around that too. So, we can just use an existing one, or we can use an empty lot. We can use a building that has some power and we can really, get our systems in there, boost the power and provide, really fast, reliable charging infrastructure.

And I think the big thing for us is, we used to kind of be in that one-to-two-week time period for deployments. And now that our coverage range has really stretched across these three countries, sometimes we’re there the same day. If not the next day, which is pretty incredible. It’s pretty incredible. So, we have that ability to do that, and I think, again, from a customer perspective, when we get a phone call and they tell us, hey, look. I have cars to charge. When can you get there? And we talk to the team internally and we say, hey, we can be there tomorrow.

Talk about delighting that customer. That makes us happy at SparkCharge. We love to solve problems, and we love to see those customers happy.

Wes Ashworth (13:31)

Yeah, it really is incredible. And obviously, when you reduce construction permits, utility work, and timeline changes completely. But I love just kind of like breaking the whole system. So, many people try to just operate within the constraints of like normal, what everybody does. And instead of just you thinking of like a whole new way to do it all together with SparkCharge, it was just really incredible. The timelines are amazing.

Once customers see the system working. What mindset shift do you observe most often? What’s some of the feedback and what’s some of the realization that they have?

David Piperno (14:10)

Yeah, think I would say first is a little bit of skepticism. They’re like, hey, can you really deploy that quickly? And then we do, and we deliver. I would say the first kind of thing that they start thinking is, hey, do I even need fixed infrastructure? Because of the flexibility of our systems and the model, I think they start to think that. They start to say, should I even continue with fixed infrastructure?

And then quite frankly, the second thing that usually comes is like, hey, we have more locations for you. So that’s usually the second. Once you validate it, once you kind of take that little bit of skepticism away, if you can really move that quickly, they’re looking for more sites. And a lot of our customers, we work with customers that are scaling, that are scaling electric vehicles. And we’ll talk a little bit more about kind of energy, energy more broadly as well, but primarily on the electric vehicle side.

We work with Fortune 100, Fortune 50 customers that are really looking to scale their fleet and really looking to go to different locations. I also think that what they, the other mindset, is really around kind of the cost benefits and ROI, right? they’ll start to do the math, and they’ll say, I’ve had SparkCharge here for a month.

Obviously, the reliability is working really well but also, the cost of this is a lot lower than I thought it was going to be. And then when you start to kind of compare that up to doing the installs and doing all the trenching and tunneling and digging and everything that comes along with it, I think you start to realize that the flexible solution is really effective as you scale to really meet the energy needs.

And again, the big thing is that you may need a hundred cars charged one day, but then 200 cars charged the next day. Anytime you’re solving that type of challenge with fixed infrastructure right you’re always solving that challenge for like that peak. Like, hey, my peak is a thousand cars charging a day and so you’re always kind of like over your cost structure, it’s kind of overcompensating for those peak times and with SparkCharge, we solve both the low and peak, and you only pay for what you’re using. And I think that’s a big benefit that these customers see.

Wes Ashworth (16:21)

Yeah, without a doubt, and it goes back to that flexibility. It makes total sense. I think for most people, seeing something operational, once it’s validated, then it really helps them imagine just new possibilities and like, where else can you do this? Which is cool.

So, you’ve also shared that your delivered energy can be cheaper than the grid for customers. Tell us a bit about that and what drives that outcome.

David Piperno (16:36)

Yeah, so great question. So, there are a lot of factors that go into this. You think about basically, our systems are really energy storage systems. And they can recharge from anywhere, recharge from renewable sources, solar, wind, right? They can recharge from the grid, those types of things. And there are times when the grid needs help with frequency regulation, when there’s kind of an overabundance of solar or wind. We can take that energy for super low cost, store it, and then we can deploy that energy. That’s kind of a, it’s a win-win, because the grid itself needs that. It needs help with that excess supply coming in.

And then also purely pretty simple, just peak shaving. Where a system can just recharge during non-peak times, deploy during the peak times, and reduce that cost significantly. You always avoid demand charges with our systems. You’re never kind of taxing the grid for that, that peak, charge speed time with DC fast charging and getting charged for that demand charge.

So, you kind of look at those three and the three primary ways, but there are a couple of other things that impact it as well.

Wes Ashworth (17:49)

It’s a great explanation. And for me, what’s interesting about your model is how it moves naturally from vehicle charging into broader grid services. And as you alluded to there, I want to dig into that as you are expanding into grid support and stability. What does that look like in real-world deployments? And tell us a bit about that.

David Piperno (18:08)

So, a little bit hot off the presses and I think we’re just kind of starting to publicly announce this, which is great. So, we definitely appreciate the question. Look, our systems were really designed to support the grid. And we specifically, at least initially, designed them to accelerate the adoption of electric vehicles. What it has done has really led us to develop a product that supports a variety of different industries and really supports any industry that has power constraints in their operations, not just electric vehicles.

We kind of do this in two ways with our systems. Number one is helping the overall grid with its energy demands by boosting the available energy at a location, and what I mean by that is, if you have any excess capacity at a location during any time, we could take that energy and store it, store it in that battery for you. So, you’re always optimizing the amount of energy that that location has. Then helping balance the demand on the grid with our energy storage systems. I mentioned peak shaving; we can help balance the demand that way with utilities.

Overall, the utilities are looking at how to deal with some of this demand, and they’re looking at non-wire alternatives. Our solutions really fit really, really well into that. And I think that the big thing is like we’ve been doing the same exact work with the systems, but it’s really been focused on accelerating the adoption of electric vehicles. Now we see the power demands. I power demands across the U.S. are just massive. And these systems do the exact same thing for all of these industries. not just not just EV charging.

So, we’re excited about that. We think it’s a big, you know, a big growth area for us. We’re starting to do some of that work now and it’s working really well. So, we’re excited about it.

Wes Ashworth (19:52)

Yeah, it’s super exciting. And I appreciate you breaking that down. It shows just how portable systems can play just more than one role. And I think when you look at that and the potential.

That is really exciting that that could really be significant, and I think it’s gonna be needed. We can’t just kind of go about it the same way. We’ve always done it that now we’ve got these demand increases. We’ve got these other things happening, like we are evolving and changing as a society, and we need creative, innovative solutions. This certainly is, so it’ll be really cool to watch that unfold and where it goes as well, as you continue to grow.

You’ve mentioned the peak shaving a couple of times. I do want to get into that. For people new to the term, how does peak shaving really work in your system?

David Piperno (20:31)

Yeah, so really kind of a straightforward example so it’s a battery, right? And we store energy during non-peak demand times. And then you can deploy those, really at any time. If you think of the classic example, where generally nighttime is available energy. And from the grid. We’ll pull that energy from the grid and store it in that battery. And then during the peak times, during that same day or any other day during any peak time, we can then deploy that energy.

And that energy can be deployed directly to the business or consumer that’s using that energy or that energy can just be simply deployed back to the grid, during those peak times, to help supplement the demand that the grid is experiencing at that point in time. And it does a lot, right? I mean, it helps really optimize pricing for energy for our customers, number one. Again, I mentioned demand charges, helps them really avoid those demand charges and even just kind of that peak pricing.

And I think in the case of utilities, it really helps them manage their peak loads more effectively. I think that over time, as we expand this platform more to other industries. I do think it’s going to help them avoid some really costly infrastructure upgrades that they would have to do. Again, they’re time consuming, they’re super costly, and these systems do exactly that. It’s really a non-wire alternative for these utility companies.

Wes Ashworth (21:59)

Yeah, clear explanation there. Obviously, managing peak periods is a concern for many operators, as we know. You talked about this a bit too, just the frequency regulation part. Maybe not everybody’s familiar with that. I’m sure a lot of listeners are, but I’m sure there are tons that aren’t.

Tell us a bit about that, absorbing surplus energy as you just expanded there too, and just how your technology really fits into that space.

David Piperno (22:06)

Yeah, yeah. So, as renewable energy is generated, there can be times when it’s just generated an excess capacity that the grid can’t really handle. That’s where storage comes into play. And I think as better energy storage just solves that problem. And I think as renewable energy continues to grow, particularly solar, the need for that energy storage is going to grow with it. And I think absorbing that excess solar energy produced really won’t be a niche. It’ll be something that’s really significant and impactful for the grid. It’ll ultimately just be essential to the overall system and the grid and how we produce and distribute energy.

And our systems, we do that now. Again, we do it now, holistically it gets deployed to EV charging, holistically. But our systems are flexible, where they can provide that energy wherever it is needed to help support the grid. So, I think that, quite frankly, the upside’s huge because every percentage increase in renewable energies creates more volatility that storage has the balance. And so, I think there’s just going to be really continued growth there. And we’re excited about that.

We’ve got some we have some partners using our systems for that now. And I do think it’s going to become a kind of core critical component to how we scale clean energy here.

Wes Ashworth (23:24)

Now, agree. It really helps frame it up. I agree. And I want to hit on something else you mentioned. I was just thinking about these opportunities of where you’re expanding and other things. I know this is such a hot topic. And these other energy-intensive operations, like data centers being one, everything we hear about is AI and data centers. And you hear about the demands and all that. Where do you see the main fit there? How does SparkCharge play into that space?

David Piperno (23:52)

Great question. Yeah, we get that. We literally get that every single day. We’re asking about data centers. So, look, I think that data centers, where I see data centers today is actually kind of similar to where EVs were when we initially launched SparkCharge, like seven years ago. Except the energy is like much more massive, right? That energy demand is just exponential, which quite frankly, just creates another huge opportunity for how we service that massive demand here.

And so, a big thing for us is, quite frankly, anytime you’re kind of overtaxing the grid. That grid needs relief. So just as our systems themselves do, doing kind of this frequency regulation, doing this peak shaving. Well, fundamentally address some of the challenges right around data centers by just fundamentally doing that itself.

I think we’ll also directly serve data centers. Some projects that’ll be pretty massive projects that will directly support data center growth as well. And then you think about really like the seasonality. There are always these seasonality challenges where, hey, you have heating issues, Summertime, they’re actually more exacerbated than wintertime. And you need these kinds of peak solutions. You need to be able to store energy somewhere and get that energy deployed for the peak you need but even daytime, nighttime. Daytime you’re running the air conditioner, nighttime maybe you’re not. So anytime you have that type of peak trough scenario, our systems can really solve that really effectively.

Wes Ashworth (25:32)

Yeah, it’s a really helpful perspective. As we know, a lot of sectors are dealing with growing power demand. Data centers are becoming more prevalent and obviously using a lot more. So, it’s great these solutions exist. So, in your view, how close are we to modular or mobile assets becoming part of just everyday grid operations?

David Piperno (25:50)

I mean, look, arguably, we’re there now with what we’re doing for SparkCharge. That kind of segment that were most of our revenue generates from is EV charging right now, but that expansion is starting to happen. Look, I think it’s a rollout. It’s gonna be a rollout next year in 2027 and we’ll really continue to go from there. I personally view it as just a vital part of the solution. When you look at energy, how it’s consumed, particularly in this country, and how we generate these systems, will quite frankly just be a vital part. And I think we saw that with EV charging. We saw that with spark charging and EV charging. And I think as we roll these solutions out to these other segments and industries, it’ll just become a vital component to that as well.

We’ve kind of proven out the ROI. Hey, you don’t need to do these costly infrastructure bills. You don’t have to do all this capital-intensive work. There are other ways to do it. And I think we’re gonna see that in other industries as we expand there.

Wes Ashworth (26:39)

Yeah, no, it’s really interesting. The grid is clearly in a period of transition. Options like these give operators more breathing room, and you can obviously just see the impact that you can have there.

So, let’s shift to just the larger picture a bit. So, you’ve raised some important concerns. We had a previous conversation around just competitiveness. You’ve said the United States has just fallen behind some countries like China when we talk about EVs, solar, and grid innovation. What factors for you are just contributing to that gap?

David Piperno (27:03)

Yeah, so great question. Look, I think a big thing, quite frankly, is, a little bit of a flux in policy for us. I think the IRA was really, that’s the Inflation Reduction Act, was really scripted out to be like one of our best chances to catch up to China from a clean energy perspective, from an electric vehicle perspective. And when I think about that landscape, electric vehicles in China aren’t just the vehicle. It’s the technology, its autonomous vehicles, it’s the grid, its clean energy, and those kinds of incentives have been there to build that infrastructure that way.

I do think with the kind of the IRA, right, I think that was a really great catalyst, to move us in that direction. And I think we are continuing to move in that direction. It’s just a little bit about the pace that we’re moving in that direction, which is actually more of a cause of concern for me because we’re clearly behind. No one debates that we’re behind China, right? From a technology perspective and clean energy, electric vehicles, and overall technology. And they own the supply chain, and that’s challenge for us. We’re kind of working here in the US to get that supply chain built up, but it’s gonna take some time, it’s gonna take some time.

Quite frankly, think it’s gonna take some time and some incentives to continue to push that along. So that’s my own personal view.

Wes Ashworth (28:40)

No, helpful context. In pointing out that issue, just sort of the pace of adoption, why does pace matter so much?

David Piperno (28:50)

Yeah, I think it’s really about us being left behind. When I think about electric vehicles and the adoption of them, I think we’re kind of hitting a little bit of a normal consumer adoption challenge. Consumers are getting used to these things. Hybrid vehicles are becoming a little bit more popular. There’s still kind of this range anxiety that’s out there. And a lot of what we’re doing is addressing that, it’s addressing it. It should, again, my view is that it’s just not addressing it as fast as we should address it. And the reason why I’m a proponent of that is I just look at, we’ve been a leader in this country. We’ve been a leader in vehicles, a leader in energy. I think we should continue that leadership position as a country.

There are cars, cars that are produced in China, that are 15, $20,000 electric vehicles. And they’re amazing cars, amazing cars. We’re just getting to the point where these electric vehicles are really decreasing in price. You can get a great EV for $35,000, $40,000 right now. And that excludes any incentives. Domestic OEMs like Ford are really targeting a great pickup, a literally mid-range, awesome pickup truck that’s electric, that’s going to be a price point of $25,000.

So, we’re getting there, but quite frankly, for those reasons, kind of want to see it happen a little bit faster.

Wes Ashworth (30:08)

Yeah, as we talked about before, too, maybe we just need a bit of a kickstart to kind of help speed that up. But for you, what would that look like in practice if we were to get some sort of kickstart?

David Piperno (30:23)

Yeah, yeah, think that quite frankly, the kickstart is, it’s a little bit incentive-based. I think China’s had that, right? And that’s why they’re in the position that they’re in. So, I think really sticking to some of these incentives that we have and pushing them forward. I think a great sign was actually NEVI. And Nevi was one of the incentives that were deployed under the Inflation Reduction Act to build these corridors for electric vehicle charging. And that’s kind of taken the biggest constraint away from consumers, which is, in fact, range anxiety.

And that’s going through. So not only is it going through it, but it’s $15 billion that’s getting deployed to the states to build this infrastructure, and a really good sign is they took away a lot of the red tape that was slowing that down. So that’s now able to get deployed faster. And even good news, which we love because we’re proponents of battery energy storage, is that battery energy storage systems now qualify for Nevi as well, which is great.

So, I think it’s just gonna happen a lot quicker. And I think that’s a big kickstart, but also just really sticking with some of these manufacturing credits that we have. There are a bunch of tax credits that are kind of rolled into the system that are still available. They’re still all available for companies to use. And I think just companies taking advantage of it and continuing to march forward.

Wes Ashworth (31:14)

Yeah, it’s good stuff, and it’s good to see that kickstart happening. I want to bring the conversation a little bit back to just consumers and fleets because they’re the ones living in the shift in real time. So, we’ve talked about it, you’ve said EVs are just simply better cars and I would agree. But what do think people misunderstand most about EVs as a whole?

David Piperno (31:52)

Look, think first and foremost, I think people are they’ve got this range anxiety. That’s kind of the and I get it, right? Makes sense. You’re kind of used to your gas vehicle, you know the gas stations, you know where you can fill up.

But quite frankly, I think when you like that, the big benefit is over electric vehicles, for electric vehicles over ICE vehicles is if you can charge at home. You really aren’t, you’re really rarely ever using public infrastructure. And if you think about that, if you have 300 miles of range and you’re charging at home, you’re never going to a gas station, period. Take that equation out. You’re never stopping at a gas station before work, after work, or to a friend’s because if your car has been home, you’ve got 300 miles of range. And the only time you really need to use public infrastructure is when you are traveling that far. And the way that I think about it, I don’t personally travel that far on a regular basis. Maybe three, maybe four times a year. I’m traveling so much that I have to find public infrastructure to charge.

So, for me, what I found with owning electric vehicles was that trade off was actually a phenomenal trade-off for me. I was actually stopping at a public infrastructure three, four times a year, rather than three, four, maybe twice a month. So, twenty-four times a year or plus. So that experience, and I think you’ve got to feel that. You have to like try an EV. You’ve got to feel that and understand that it’s actually a net benefit, a major net benefit kind of on the trade-off.

And then the tech, look, I think an under kind of publicized thing about electric vehicles is you get pushed updates like every two weeks, three weeks, you get pushed updates. And these updates are sometimes like you’re getting the new model year of the car. So, you’re getting this incredible update that is giving you new functions and features in this vehicle that you’d have to buy a whole new vehicle to get those updates.

So yeah, I think it’s like experiencing it, And I do think the hybrid solution for these vehicles is a good step in that direction for consumers to kind of begin to feel it, begin to understand it. And then I think we’ll kind of naturally take that next step to more full battery electric vehicles.

Wes Ashworth (33:57)

Yeah, no, all good points. And I didn’t think a lot of people form opinions, obviously, before they ever drive one. And it’s funny, as you say, that you’re like, well, most people, especially if they’re like a big SUV driver, truck driver, they’re filling up maybe once a week. And then you’re like, okay, how long does that take you? And I know you’ve been there where you’re driving home from work and the last thing you want to do is have to stop and fill up.

EV, you don’t have to do that. You just go home, plug it in, and you’re good to go. So, it’s in a lot of ways, it’s not just better for the environment, whatever, it’s a better, superior product in my opinion. It’s kind of the equivalent to me of like a landline versus a cell phone. Gas sometimes, it’s a little outdated, it’s getting older. EVs, they’re super fun to drive as well too. Obviously, those concerns you raise have been resolved, just try it out.

David Piperno (34:46)

Let’s try it. Just give it a try. I think people are going to love them.

Wes Ashworth (34:59)

Exactly. You’re right, the range anxiety, like number one, probably concerns that always comes up first. How do you see that concern changing as infrastructure expands and portable charging grows?

David Piperno (35:13)

Yeah, look, I think the big thing there, quite frankly, is the charging infrastructure for these corridors. So, when you’re traveling, if I’m traveling a hundred miles, 200 miles, can I get a charge? I think that’s people’s biggest concern. The biggest concern isn’t necessarily, hey, I’m going to a friend’s house or going to work, can I get range? You’re holistically charging at home for the most part, for the most part here. And I think the good news there is that Nevi is moving forward, and it’s moving forward at a faster rate than it was before, which is phenomenal. Again, it’s $15 billion to install this infrastructure, up and down the corridors where people travel. And it’s getting distributed. We see it getting distributed faster than it was before.

And I think we’re going to see the range anxiety continue to fade and maybe accelerate with that infrastructure. And I think that’s important. Having that reliable infrastructure when you’re traveling is definitely an important component of it all. We do some of that at SparkCharge, where we’re providing that infrastructure along these travel routes and those types of things. And we’re doing it, like it’s driving intelligence. It’s telling states where we should actually install chargers. Where should we spend the money and install infrastructure? Those types of things.

So yeah, so I think we’re kind of on the cusp there. I do. I think back to my Zipcar days, this is like 14 years ago, something like that, where we had EVs in the fleet, and we heard the same thing, range anxiety. And what I would say there is kind of my experience is that it takes that consumer some time. And they have to use it. And then it takes them a couple of months, takes them a year. And then they really understand that I don’t really need to be concerned about this. And then I think you couple that kind of consumer shift with Nevi. And we should start to see that alleviating.

Wes Ashworth (37:10)

Yeah, absolutely. Great observation and I agree. So, familiarity usually reduces worries. I think that’ll only get better and better as we go. Another thing too, so you’ve described ICE vehicles or internal combustion engine vehicles as inflationary and EVs as deflationary. How should listeners think about that difference or help break that down for us a little bit?

David Piperno (37:24)

Yeah, so great question. I mean, look, I think anyone going to buy a car is seeing that the price for a nice vehicle is just going up. So, if you bought a car four or five years ago, you go back, look at the same car, and it’s more expensive. And there’s a variety of reasons around that, just kind of overall inflationary factors, going into the parts of vehicles, those types of things. But I mean, look, like maintenance costs too, right? There are more maintenance costs on a nice vehicle rather than an electric vehicle, and those costs are trending up.

There are also the fuel prices. Generally, over time, fuel prices have increased, and energy prices as they are just generally more stable. There’s a little bit less inflation across the board for energy rather than fuel. And we’re seeing the cost of EVs come down significantly, even without these tax credits, these incentives that are kind of embedded in them.

I mentioned before, Ford’s on the path here to produce a great electric pickup. That’s a great truck, $25,000 price point. And I think also if you looked seven, eight years ago, EVs were a little bit for the luxury. You had to pay a premium for that car. And you can get an incredible EV now for $40,000 brand new. And that’s actually generally cheaper than most ICE vehicles as they are now.

To go out and buy a new car, you’re most likely spending more than that. Yeah, so I think just overall, the cost of these electric vehicles is coming down. The maintenance is a lot cheaper. You’re not dealing with a lot of moving components. You’re not doing oil changes. You have far fewer parts in an EV that can even break down. And so, your total cost of ownership will definitely be cheaper. And then with the supply chain, with batteries particularly coming down so much over the past couple of years, you were paying $200, $300 a kilowatt hour for a battery. And now these batteries are sub 100 kilowatt hours, So $100 per kilowatt hour. So that’s just gonna keep bringing that price down, and that’s gonna keep getting better.

I haven’t seen a forecast where folks have said, hey, these costs are gonna increase. So we should be, the realization of a $25,000 electric vehicle in the US, made in the US, over the next couple of years, 2026, 2027, really should come to fruition. And that vehicle, I would expect, if I’m a consumer, you can expect that vehicle to be better than a $40,000 ICE vehicle. So, I would say keep your eyes out there for it because I’m pretty confident it’s gonna happen.

Wes Ashworth (40:01)

Without a doubt. Helpful breakdown, just overall there. I love that the focus is on just the total cost of ownership. Obviously matters so much to consumers and fleets. With your focus today, like heavily on fleets, how do individual consumers fit into maybe your long-term view or long-term plan?

David Piperno (40:22)

Yeah, yeah, great question. So, we do a little bit of that work now for electric vehicles, but mainly for fleets of electric vehicles. But I see that our systems are kind of talking about the broader application of our systems. I see them playing a more critical role in how we’re continuing to help balance the energy demands for consumers. So that can relate to how they’re charging their electric vehicles, their energy demands, how to charge electric vehicles, but also just our systems enabling their overall cost of energy to come down.

So, I see it kind of both ways for sure. Again, we’re starting to do some of that now, but I would anticipate that our systems are just used more broadly right across that grid. And then consumers will ultimately see the benefit, where anytime there’s costly infrastructure that needs to be made by utility companies, that’s just gonna increase the cost of energy. So, the more and more that we can help, not only delay, but actually, permanently replace these expensive infrastructures, consumers are gonna see the benefit of them.

Wes Ashworth (41:11)

Absolutely. I agree. I think it makes complete sense. And as we get a little closer to the time, I want to finish by just looking forward. And because you know, SparkCharge is clearly building towards something larger and is very excited about the future and what that’s going to look like. Looking ahead for you, like three to five years, what’s the biggest opportunity for SparkCharge and what does it look like down the road?

David Piperno (41:41)

Look, I think we’re obviously like our business around electric vehicles is proven and very kind of maturing at this point in time, where people know us and we do a great job at what we do and alleviating kind of these great constraints for electric vehicles. But we’re now starting to deploy these units in our technology to support not only EVs, but other industries that are really power-constrained, similar to just what we’ve seen with electric vehicles.

It’s going to be a big focus for us. I think SparkCharge is really, we’re really a mobile energy company where we’re deploying that energy where it needs to go. Where’s that cost per kilowatt hour the greatest, and how can SparkCharge help alleviate that cost? Also, where are these costly infrastructures needed and planned and how can we alleviate the need to build these costly infrastructure build-outs? And we do it faster, so it just really takes, something may take 10, 15 years. In those instances, down to maybe a couple of months to get things deployed and get it out there.

And then I also think about international. We’re definitely focused on Canada, US, and Mexico right now, but we’re getting a lot of demand in Europe and the Middle East. So, there are two areas, two regions of the world that I would see us entering into, kind of rather quickly. And then just really leveraging some of the background that we have, like myself included, but the rest of the team and tackling some of these international markets.

Wes Ashworth (43:10)

Yeah, it’s really exciting stuff and it just shows how wide the field of possibility is for mobile power. So again, excited to see where that goes. So, when you look at just the future of clean energy and mobility, what gives you the most hope?

David Piperno (43:23)

The most hope. Yeah, so, look, as I mentioned kind of earlier in the conversation, kind of having the finance background and like the passion around sustainability. My big thing is like, it all comes down to ROI, that’s just super important. Like it’s gotta work. It’s gotta work for consumers. It’s gotta work for businesses. And I think over time, we’ve been able to prove that out. We’ve really proven out like clean technology solutions; they satisfy the demand at an ROI that’s compelling, and that works for us.

So that always keeps me going, knowing that we’ve done it, we’ve done it before. And that trajectory is always on the right trajectory. Sometimes it doesn’t happen as fast as I would like it. But over time, we’ve innovated. We’re strong innovators, and we’ve innovated and we’ve developed technologies. And I love being part of that. And I love just continuing to see that happen. mean, the leaps and bounds that we’ve made over the past four or five years, I’m super excited about the next leaps and bounds that’ll be made.

And then look, particularly when with AI. I mean, imagine the impact that we can have with more technology advancements in this space by applying AI. And so, we’re starting to do that here at SparkCharge as well. We actually had a press release go out about that. And that’s an exciting platform, where that platform is kind of part and parcel to the core product, and how energy gets delivered to the locations that need it most, and identifying these grid constraints and solving these grid constraints.

So yeah, so I’m super excited about it. know, I think we, again, we’ve got a history, you know, in this country of being super innovative around this space and proven the ROI, and I’m excited for it.

Wes Ashworth (45:06)

I love that. A lot to be hopeful for there. Very, very exciting. Final question. Just anything you didn’t get to share, anything you want to leave the audience with, anything we kind of left out, the final word is yours, and I’ll just open it up and let you share. Anything else you want to leave the audience with?

David Piperno (45:21)

Yeah, thanks, Wes. I think we’ve covered a lot, but the only other thing I would actually kind of add onto a little bit of what I was saying is around AI, right? It’s a little bit of a new offering that we’re providing right now for SparkCharge. And what that offering does right now for fleets is it really continues to take their lead time down for EV installations, EV infrastructure, and charging.

So, something that would take analysis around their energy needs or demand. We’ve taken months of work down to literally minutes to an hour through these AI platforms that we’ve built. So that’s super exciting. So not only that, what that helps us at SparkCharge is deploy even faster. And not only faster, but even more accurate with the deployment. So, we’re servicing our customers in a way that’s not over-indexing on the amount of energy they need and not under-supplying the energy that they need, and doing it even faster than we’ve done historically.

We’re super excited about that. And that’s now a core offering that’s available that we’ve been actively deploying. And then I do think that platform goes right into other industries as well. Because I think with what we’ve done in SparkCharge, solves these challenges more specifically for electric vehicles, but it applies to all these other different industries. I think throughout 2026, we’re going to do a lot of work, and we’re excited about it.

Wes Ashworth (46:47)

That’s awesome. I love that, David. Just great conversation, great way to close there. You really gave us a clear look at how SparkCharge is supporting EV adoption, helping relieve pressure on the grid. You also laid out larger challenges and opportunities facing the energy transition today. So, I appreciate you taking the time and sharing so openly.

For everyone listening out there, visit sparkcharge.io. I’ll link that into the show notes as well to learn more about their work. And if you enjoyed today’s episode, please subscribe, rate, and share Green Giants so more people can hear these stories. And with that, we will see you next time.