Green Giants – Episode 93

Wes Ashworth (03:02)

I love that story. So many like share that in terms of, you know, it wasn’t necessarily something you just really set out to say I’m going to build my career in this, but you were an electrician and fell into it. You find the interest, you find the passion. Obviously as I mentioned there, you’ve been able to do phenomenal things for it and then bringing you kind of where you are today. So that’s, cool. I always love those stories. I always try to encourage people earlier in their career, it doesn’t always happen the way you plan it to happen. You’re probably going to land somewhere and then you kind of build off of that and you find your way and you find your purpose. So again, another cool example.

Chris Williamson (03:30)

Now you’ve got people that are actually coming into the industry intentionally, which was kind of cool. When I got into it, it wasn’t a segment that had any staying power. I had no idea whether it would be a big thing. I just thought it was cool at the time. But now to see like programs and courses and curriculum and people studying to enter into this market space is very cool.

Wes Ashworth (03:40)

It is super cool and hope to a lot more of that and I think we will. As I mentioned too, so going from like an electrician to really helping really shape the industry as a whole, what you’ve done and part of that you’ve helped design Canada’s first national solar training standards. What did that process teach you about how an industry grows or how it holds itself back?

Chris Williamson (04:18)

THe interesting thing about it is I came to understand that technology drives the industry and it’s always ahead of and so therefore you have to be responsive to, to allow the technology to come into play. When this technology was coming out, there was no code regulations really associated with it. There wasn’t incentivization. There wasn’t acceptance by utility grids for export of energy. It really was a standalone product at the beginning.

I have to credit a lot of other people my career as much as I feel like I’ve worked hard in it. There’s a lot of moments where people have given me the opportunity to pursue areas and segments that I didn’t necessarily believe were going to be worthy and training was actually one of them. I was working closely with a good friend of mine, John Rotter, way back in the day at a company called Solar Wholesaler and it doesn’t exist anymore. But that’s kind of where the OG story of training came to be.

He approached me and said that a lot of people were buying the products that he was utilizing, but didn’t necessarily know how to design an effective system. He said, “Hey, would you like to teach a course? Would you like to teach people how to do this?” I said, “Well, that sounds cool, but I don’t think anyone would pay for it. I don’t think anyone would support this.” He convinced me that it would be a good idea. That’s kind of where we started. We put together everything that I thought I knew about solar. It was pretty limited at the time.

I knew enough to get by, but training made me really good, I think. That’s where I got an in-depth understanding. When you’re talking about a product, you can only think of it from your perspective. But as soon as you stand up in front of a crowd, you now have everyone’s perspective that you have to consider. I’d say something about electron flow or current, and then they would ask a question out of left field that I’d never even thought of. You’d have to say, I don’t know. I’ll tell you tomorrow or I’ll get back to you.

You start learning more as time goes by. Maybe it’s a bit of fake it till you make it. Maybe it’s the way of natural progression for that. That came to be a thing. Then when we looked at it, there was no national standard. It was great to teach people, but I really wanted to take something and make it great and spread that better. We started working with CSA to create a national standard. They didn’t really know how necessarily to do that at the time.

They were committed to a process as well. That’s kind of where it was born. I learned a lot about how the technology has to come in first, people need to become aware of it. It has to have staying power for us to invest that time in education and standardization and support for it. Then also some of the pitfalls are a lot of great products exist that maybe don’t catch on that have some degree of support. You always have to look at everything and invest a little bit into all the possible opportunities.

Wes Ashworth (06:54)

It’s incredibly valuable. I think people overlook it sometimes like the training and you know, just standardization and those sort of things too. It can be viewed a little bit sometimes as the boring work, but it’s so critical, so important. Especially as something grows, something that starts to scale and building that bridge between, you know, what’s possible and what’s practical. But it’s cool. You’ve had a just hands on influence in that and being able to really touch it and help build something is pretty remarkable.

Part of that too, I know you’re a well traveled guy. You’ve worked across Canada, Africa, Asia, just really globally all over the world. But how does the role of renewable energy look different in developing regions compared to mature markets like Canada, for example?

Chris Williamson (07:35)

We have a really great energy sector here in Canada across the board. As much as people might complain about it when they see their power bill, the reality is that it’s a very mature infrastructure, right? We do have the benefit of that. To us, I’ll say this cautiously, a lot of what I’m going to say is obviously my opinion, which is why I’m here.

My opinion is it’s kind of nice to have the power bill cost to be our problem. No offense to anyone that’s struggling with those challenges, but in parts of the world that I serve, they don’t have electricity. It means something incredibly different. When we take for granted the idea of lights as an example, when you start getting to some remote areas or some countries that are under serviced or developing, they’re close to the equator, they’ve got 12 hours of light, 12 hours of day. It’s really hard to get an education when you don’t have lights because you can’t read at night.

Some of these little things that we take for granted often are the difference between moving a country forward or it just staying stagnant. The idea of water pumped to our house can alleviate thousands of steps per day just trying to acquire that. That little bit of electricity changes it. In some areas that we serve, it’s about developing a nation and providing security and infrastructure. In other areas, it’s about lowering power bills.

Then some areas, because they’re industry isn’t as developed as the Canadian market space, we see different adoption rates on the product. In Canada, a lot of what we do is trying to shoehorn new technology into old infrastructure investment. Because no one wants to say, what we did 20 years ago is maybe not what we would do today. We need to find a way to value that. Whereas developing nations can kind of just build new, net new, with the knowledge that we have today and the price points that are afforded them today.

Wes Ashworth (09:18)

Such important points there. The important point around when energy becomes about survival and stability rather than politics, it really does change everything about how people view it, how they innovate. As we’ve gone through this you can tell how those early years and your years since then have really shaped the way you think about impact, whether it’s practical, global and really grounded in what actually works. I want to move into what that looks like today in one of the most influential clean energy companies in Canada. For listeners who only know Polaron as a solar company, how would you describe what it’s become today?

Chris Williamson (09:55)

We did start as a solar company. I say we is in the royal we. I haven’t been with Polaron for that entire time. I’ve been closely connected. I provided consulting services and training services through my career to Polaron and always saw them as a really important cornerstone of our renewable industry. They grew up in really in the residential sector, right? In the fit program days in Ontario was when it all started.

To know where Polaron is now, you need to know how it started, I guess. The origin story for it is Mohan and his partner, Mohan Wang, our CEO, he decided that solar was a great idea. He came to this from a unique perspective. I think a lot of companies back in the day started from an electrician, seeing the value of this. But Mohan’s an accountant and an incredibly astute one. I think that that’s the reason that Polaron has such staying power is because it’s always grounded in good financials.

Which gives us a different kind of look on the world, right? With that idea in mind, the focus on what we provide today is different than what it was before. Before it was about some savings, some future investment in your property and stuff like that. Now it’s really clearly about return on investment. Our residential team has had a huge impact and we’ve come up with new financial vehicles in order to move that forward. In-house financing is a big thing that Polaron is really proud of, but we use that not only in our residential sector, but also the C&I space too.

We deliver projects that are maybe a little bit different than our competition today, leading us more to an energy company. The reason is that when you start getting to the higher percentages offset of your power bill, you have diminishing return on investment that comes along with that. To get a hundred percent offset, because of the way the sun interacts in our space, we’re ending up with more or less extra credits, a deficit on production holding, and then export value versus import value. If you keep it to the twenty to thirty percent off that’s a very surgical removal of power bills that’s incredibly predictable very stable and that gives us a competent position for our return on investment with our clients. Moving into the other technology that we offer now too, it’s no longer just solar, we’re talking about energy storage system so large ESS as well as small. Also now the hot product is EV charging. We look at all of these effects together that provide a return on investment for our client. When we package them all, we start seeing some pretty cool outcomes. That’s where we say, we’re an energy company now. You can export to the grid through your inverter for your avoided cost of power or use a battery to offset your demand charges. But you can also retail that electricity through an EV charger for an even higher value. You bake it all together, I mean, are you a solar company? Are you a battery company? Are you EV company? You’re just an energy company.

Wes Ashworth (12:33)

Well said, well put. I think it’s cool. I think you guys are ahead of the game, but that shift is kind of mirrors what we see in the evolution of the entire industry. It’s more and more about the entire energy picture versus like one small segment. I like that a lot. I think through this too, you’ve had very strategic partnerships, some in China as well too, and giving access to manufacturing materials and R&D. Tell us a bit more about that and just how that maybe vertical integration just changed what’s possible for you in the company.

Chris Williamson (13:05)

We’re really lucky. We get to call ourselves maybe a vertically integrated EPC might be the best description for that, because we manufacture a lot of the products that we incorporate. Even the ones that we don’t necessarily manufacture, we are so tight with the manufacturing of. We’ve developed really good relationships on our global product offerings and we do build a lot of it too. At the top of us, we do have our parent company that is an ESS manufacturer. That allows us to create really custom options for our clientele.

Then the benefit of our global presence allows us to capture a lot of information about what is required in areas, what trends are popping in a certain region and see if we can amalgamate that and bring that to Canada, which is really our home as Polaron. We play all over the place, but Toronto is where it all began and we never forget that. We do want to learn what we’ve experienced in different areas that are maybe a little bit more aggressive with technology or willing to give trials for it.

Canada would never be accused of being a leader in the world of technology as far as investment goes. We’re very stable. We’re very cautious. You look at some markets where it’s maybe more pivotal to the next day to have that energy and they’re willing to take more risk. Canada, once again, has the benefit of that very stable utility network.

Once you’re big and you’re stable, the thing that you win is the ability to avoid risk, right? We try new things in other areas, like, hey, that was really awesome. This is a cool trend. How can we bring that back? It allows us to support our customers in a different way. When we talk about the ESS being the manufacturer means that once you compile this, I don’t necessarily want it to be a Polaron sales pitch, but we have in-house financing, which means that we’re the partner of that client.

Then when we’re financing that ESS, you know damn well that we wanted to work for 10 years. We’re funding this, it’s got a role. That gives us the requirement to continue to adapt to the protocols of that product and make sure that it’s successful in tomorrow’s energy sector. Lots of areas don’t have time of use charges today, but they will tomorrow or the day after. How are we gonna manage that product for them when it comes to be? In that vein of being the energy company, not just this company that sells stuff.

Wes Ashworth (15:19)

It’s a great perspective. Again, I think mirroring what the best are doing and being that sort of total solution, having it all there, highly customizable, really tailored to the customer. think that’s the magic sauce, right? You mentioned too, I know you guys work in a lot of different markets, very different rules, politics, utilities. This is a topic always that fascinates me, but what have you learned about staying effective across such varied systems and what are some of the you learn and kind of working in those different areas with different roles, different landscape, different environment?

Chris Williamson (15:49)

It’s changed my view on the world, quite honestly. Everything that I thought I knew at one point in time has changed several times over that. I’ve had to become really okay with changing my perspective. I think that that’s maybe the best thing that I’ve learned honestly, is that the more you know, the better you can do, you have to be willing to let go of your previous opinion once you’re presented a different idea.

That goes for everything from technology to politics to ideology to what you think of a certain demographic of the world. Until you’ve really been there, I would say you don’t really know as much as you think. A good example, when I first started out into my career of international business, the Middle East changed everything that I thought I knew about so many things.

I definitely won’t get into the politics of it today, but I can tell you that it was pretty shocking. I rolled up as a good Canadian boy that has his beliefs in capitalism and socialism and economics and politics and to be standing in a place that is so different, but yet see that it is still working, has led me to just realize that as people, we’re all going to be the way that we are. There is no right or wrong. There just is time and space and everyone gets to do it differently. We play the way that we want to and that’s effective for us. But it doesn’t mean that somewhere else doesn’t have a way that works, too. I think that was my biggest thing. When it comes to the politics of it, I’ve learned that some areas are really corrupt. Some areas are really easy. It’s really important that when you’re looking at a new market space that you consider a lot of variables beyond just can I sell a system? Can I support it? Can I understand, can I see viability, can I see longevity?

The things that I look at for business success now on international positions are so different than when I first did it because I didn’t know what I didn’t know when I first stepped into the world. Now it’s like, how stable is their currency? How stable is their government? When’s their next election? What did they do last time? Who did they play with in the world? Are they on the right side or on the wrong side of where I want to be? There’s a lot to it, but it’s fun and it’s really engaging and I think it’s changed dramatically who I am.

Wes Ashworth (18:03)

I love so much of that and what you shared there. I think it’s so important world would be probably a much better place if we all adopted that. I think just the openness, right? That there’s different ways to do things. There’s different way to think about things and different ways to approach this and that just because it’s different doesn’t mean it’s wrong. But if you really open your perspective, I think how much better off you can be in being that more well-rounded person. But I think also just from like an efficiency and innovation standpoint you just open up so many different ways of thinking about things and solving problems and looking at different solutions. I love this. That’s one of my favorite topics for sure. I can talk about that, but we’ll keep going.

 Tinking about Polaron, when you look out at competitors that are out there, what do you think Polaron is doing differently that truly does give it an edge compared to the masses?

Chris Williamson (18:41)

As I think about it, that’s a pretty interesting question. What do we do different? Because at the end, what everyone sees is, you know, the same kind of outcome. We just put out some systems and clients get served. But what we’re really doing on the inside is trying to adapt to new systems that come on board. I think that’s really where we have staying power is our ability to see those future trends, capitalize them, and then already have experience when they come to be in the Canadian market space.

Our team has been deploying gigawatt hours of lithium technology globally. Now in the Canadian market space, it’s still a very small market in comparison, right? We always like to look at those future trends. We like to stay on the cutting edge of technology and know that it is going to be an important tech in Canada if it works in the global scale.

I think that’s really what it is, is just staying ahead of that understanding curve on technology. Wee’ve been modeling batteries that are profitable for quite some time. It’s allowed us to work with a lot of different utilities and give them understandings of how this technology can actually work, right? They’re usually a little bit behind the ball when it comes to technology too, right? We get to be that leader. We look for it, we bring it here and then we already have that experience where our competition is maybe coming online and trying to be that.

But we do want to work with our competition, too. I think that one thing that I really bring to the table is an interest in protecting this industry together with others and not so much looking at it as competition. That’s a really blessed place to be because Polaron is so confident and well positioned in the market that we don’t have maybe some of the same challenges as other places, but we want to work with them. We want to give them understanding. We want to support them with great products.

We want to be in trade groups with them and discuss the future and be those leaders that are good practitioners of our industry.

Wes Ashworth (20:46)

I love that. I love the focus on collaboration too. I think obviously you’re doing some very unique things that set you apart, but I think having the just the heart of like an abundance mindset, right? Like we’re all better together, the industry doing well, other competitors doing well, it helps all of us. I love that too. I think that perspective just really captures how Polaron is positioned itself for the long game.

Then for me, part of what makes you such a compelling voice is that you’re also not afraid to challenge the status quo, even within your own industry. I think it’s it’s needed. But you you said we in a previous conversation that you actually dislike incentives, which, maybe maybe not a popular opinion. I don’t know. But tell us about that. Why do think they could do more harm than good? What’s your take on that?

Chris Williamson (21:21)

This will probably be the least popular thing that I say and some of it is because I do get that position with Polaron, right? It’s a unique spot that I find myself in to be able to look at it from this vantage point. But the truth is that incentive, sometimes they’re great, they really work. It depends on what the goal is, right?

There’s a lot of different types of incentives as well, right? There’s some where they’re P3 agreements where their partnerships amongst groups in order to incentivize. The SI program in BC might be a good example of a P3 model. What they have is BC Hydro is incentivizing energy storage in the commercial and industrial sector. What it really is a grouping of a solution. They’re coming in with some financing, the client is coming in with a location, a demand fee, and an interconnect. Then we as a provider come in as that solution provider that understands the tech is gonna back it up and make sure that it works. That to me is not so much an incentive as it is a P3 as much as we call it an incentive. Other areas, and what I mean by incentives, I don’t think are still required, they did definitely start the solar industry.

I’m only standing here because of the FIT program and the incentive that that was. I’m not gonna forget where I came from, but the market is now mature. The price points have come down. The access to the technology and the general consumer understanding of it is high enough now that I think we’re in a position where we can just let it roll. Oftentimes what happens with these incentives is they come in to support products or solutions or offerings that private corporations have already come up with.

Greener Homes Loan, as an example. From my vantage point, once again, Polaron worked really hard to come up with a Sunline program, a financing system that offered clientele that opportunity. Of course, it was a profitable model because you have to have that churn of finances to make anyone invest in it. But then Canadian Greener Home Loan comes out and they give financing for free. We invested a lot in order to come up with that solution because we saw it as a requirement. We did that and then they gave it away.

There was definitely some moments where we had to look internally and see how are we going to strategize about what just happened and, and will it be here? Will it go away? Little things like that occasionally really mess with the ecosystem. You disadvantage those that have done the thing that the industry needed. We should be incentivized to come up with great ideas as opposed to just take advantage of the thing. If companies like Polaron are afraid of doing that out or any of our large competition as well it will remove some of the great things that could come.

In that way you know maybe the GHG wasn’t an incentive but it was a model that incentivized certain groups over others to become more effective in an industry. Now we see little incentives that come in here and there but it also creates this thing like, I know that Canadian Tire is gonna have a sale on something, so I’m never gonna buy it for full price. I’ll just wait till that incentive rolls around. We also see the stagnation of clientele between incentives when they’re on hold or paused or being refreshed. That changes the market there too. I don’t like them because of that.

Wes Ashworth (24:51)

I get it. It may be an uncommon take, but it’s a great one. Great perspective you shared there and I don’t disagree. Yeah. So now I’ll make you like start from scratch. If you were starting from scratch and rebuilding the way we design clean energy policy, what principles would you put at the center?

Chris Williamson (24:57)

With what we know today, everything would be different, right? Because these policies started, like honestly, I didn’t even see a world where batteries were going to be a component when I first started in this industry. We’re using like lead acid batteries and like 130 watt solar panels. It’s by no means what it is today. Hindsight is a powerful tool for us to pretend like we could have done or done something different.

If we go down that road, obviously, I think today’s world is pointing more towards decentralized microgrids. These are the things that I’m seeing internationally as well from a building position. When utilities are looking at technology and how is it that they can implement and start from scratch, those are things that I would do differently. If I could go back, there’s some stuff that I would undo too. Some aspects of FIT were not as awesome as other parts.

We did open up a few cans of worms in there, but I think, the industry and the globe kind of learned from some of those positions. Maybe there’s some stuff in there that I’d rework with some of the contracts and things, but those are all hindsight things. It would be really today, a focus on today’s technology would allow us to decentralize more. That decentralization and by proxy, the micro-gridding of the grid would create better resiliency. It would lower costs.

But also that same time, I’m a rooftop solar guy. If you ask me the best place for a solar panel, I’m going to tell you a rooftop. It’s not actually a farmer’s field in the middle of nowhere. I would put in place policies that were more specific towards those rooftop installs and support that generation on point of use big time. That’s where it’s at to me.

Wes Ashworth (26:40)

Constructive way to think about it and good perspective for sure. Hindsight’s always 20/20, but lessons we learn that can help us shape and move the right way forward as well too and do it better this time around as we continue to move forward. Kind of still on the incentive topic, there are those that say and I’ve heard it as well too. You’re like, yeah, I get your point, but they say that incentives are really still necessary to get people moving. Is there truth in that?  Where do you think that logic maybe goes wrong? What’s your take on it?

Chris Williamson (27:10)

I think that the logic goes wrong because we see solar deployed globally, everywhere. There isn’t a sector of the world that’s not using it. Right down to Antarctica has solar panels, you know, and there’s like no people there. It’s just like people studying. It’s everywhere, it is all over the place. The price points are so attractive now. Let me hit you with this idea. When I started into this, it was really considered to be remote power.

It’s kind of what we called solar. By proxy, that meant solar. We didn’t even really say the word. We just say like remote power. Then afterwards, like the industry kind of moved into this world where we started calling it maybe alternative energy. Like that was kind of a cool term that we played with. I was like, yeah, alternative. Like, aren’t we just energy? It’s just electrons, right? After that, we moved into green energy or clean tech or renewable. You know, we’re all terms that were there.

We’re now in a world where internationally we more often than not call it modular power. It’s kind of changed a little bit in what it is to people. It’s because it’s actually cheaper than any other generation source. With that understanding, when we look at it, incentivization is less and less required. I would say what we need is not this incentive.

We need a parity of what it is that is being done for other generation sources. When we’re talking about the tax benefits that they get and other types of discounts that go along with that. Those are the things. I think it’s really just parity that’s required. Then to the homeowners, the economics of their power bills are changing and they’re changing quickly along with everything else because it’s all interconnected, right?

If you’re a fossil fuel dependent utility network, then you’re going to start to see things take place with the change of the fluctuation in those commodity prices, right? Time of use is going to become more important because as grid demands start increasing, we start seeing time of use as an important aspect because a battery allows you to, it’s just a time machine for electricity, right? You built it now, but we’ll deploy it later.

These are the natural effects that make the economics make sense for the people that utilize it. I think it’s just a matter of a little bit of time until the economics of the utility distribution network and the cost of power becomes present to end users that they naturally take the adoption through to the tech. That’s why I don’t think incentives are required. I think we need to show them what the power bill really is once you do that. Maybe it’s a removal of other incentives that actually you know eliminates the requirement for the falsified incentive in renewables.

Wes Ashworth (29:42)

That’s entirely fair. I think when you kind of frame it around maturity, like in my mind, there’s a time for support, also time to stand on your own.

Chris Williamson (29:54)

It’s like a kid, right? You know, like I supported my daughters while they were super young. I paid for everything and then they get a job. Now they can buy some of their clothes and it goes like that.

Wes Ashworth (30:03)

Yeah, there comes a time for sure. I love it. I think what makes your perspective so valuable is you’re not just looking for what’s always politically convenient. You’re focusing on what actually works and being very practical. I want to bring that same thinking to the just the tech driving the next big shift in renewables. As we look at the future of things, you said utilities are often several years behind the technology. You mentioned that a minute ago as well. Several years behind the technology that they rely on. What keeps that gap so wide and is it ever going to change?

Chris Williamson (30:33)

I don’t know that it will change. Every day when I wake up, there’s something new in the energy space. Be it a consumer or a generation or a technology that couples with it to make it better. How is it possible for a public entity to support this type of understanding? I think that the public sector really relies on private sector practitioners and that is a good relationship.

But in light of it, they’re always gonna be behind. I’m behind on it because someone made something last night that I haven’t read about today. That’s maybe the beauty of the renewable space. When I was teaching people, I’d always tell them that the beauty of the industry is it has this double-edged sword, right? If anyone who has never seen anything about solar today started really studying today and they were like, “this is gonna be what I’m gonna do. I’m gonna commit to this.”

I would say maybe six to nine months, they’ll be able to speak to current technology just as well as I can today because it changes so quickly, right? All of the stuff that I know from 10 years ago, I mean that makes me a great curator at a solar museum, but it doesn’t mean that I’m relevant in today’s area. I just like everyone that’s coming up in this have to stay on the cutting edge of technologies offering. It really is a labor of love to be able to do that. I love this industry and it keeps it creative.

I can be out just as easily as someone else can be in. Therefore, how can a utility manage that? There will always be the gap. Then once again, with Canada being so conservative with the way that we approach new technology means that functionally, the Canadian mentality leaves us at least a year back from some of the more aggressive implementation groups.

Wes Ashworth (32:09)

A great perspective. I think to your point how innovation does have to be driven from private companies, but I like the emphasis on somebody just coming in and really learning it, how quick it does change and evolve. If you’re making decisions based on assumptions that were, from five years ago or even three years ago, it’s like you’re sunk. But it is changing, evolving. To me, that’s what’s exciting about the industry. It always keeps it fresh and the reason we do these podcasts, we can feature some new things, new voices.

With some of the technology advancements, so Polaron is using artificial intelligence, machine learning to manage energy storage. Tell us a little bit about that and kind of walk us through how that works and what’s happening.

Chris Williamson (32:45)

The world has changed on batteries, like significantly. When you look at all the locations in an energy system that have the opportunity for intelligence, and then you start trying to figure out what is it that we could do with this part, right? Like a solar panel is like, they’re awesome, I love them. But they’re not exactly the brightest pieces of technology, you know, they just convert energy. We have opportunities at the point of inversion for truly intelligent controls.

We have opportunities maybe at the EV charger for some stuff, but where I really think it comes together is in the energy storage medium. Honestly, I am of the belief that the world doesn’t need another solar panel without a battery. I think that that’s where we’re migrating towards anyway, naturally. But this provides us a lot of really interesting things that we can do with this because of consumption patterns.

The AI models and some of the machine learning that are coming in are incredible. We interconnect and because it handles that export of energy, right now batteries do a myriad of things, but their bulk of their use is probably utility and peak demand offsets. Frequency regulation is how it’s being handled. But to the C&I space, it’s about demand charge abatement. It’s maybe a little bit about backup resiliency, but it’s about a financial model that’s working for them, right?

When we start paying attention to consumers’ consumption habits by monitoring those circuits, and then we start looking at solar’s generation timeframes and intertwining this whole web of knowledge that we have, the controls become incredible. Our ESSs today can take historical data trends from your consumption circuits and then overlay that with future potential production. As we start working with more AI driven aspect and giving these machines opportunity to interact with more and more fields of input, we start seeing crazy outcomes.

We are at the point today where if given access to open pool power prices, as well as local weather forecasting capabilities, we can say, “Hey, tomorrow it’s going to be super cold. We anticipate because of all the electric heat around here, there’s going to be a spike in value of electricity and it’s probably not going to be a good generation day because it’ll be overcast. We should hold our energy right now and export tomorrow. That’s where the value is going to be.” We’re starting to see predictive models that know how to do that. They know how to dispatch to consumption. They know how to export for profit. It’s incredible. I didn’t always believe that this is how this was going to go. Originally, when we said AI, I was like, AI going to do for me? As I kind of approach everything, like maybe I’m a little bit Canadian where I’m reserved with technology as well. But no, my mind’s been changed after I saw the actual results of it. I was like, okay, that’s the frontier. That’s where we go.

Wes Ashworth (35:23)

Frontier. That’s a great word to use. I agree. It’s coming fast, just just the evolution of AI and what it’s unlocking, the incredible potential that you’re able to achieve. It’s an exciting time. I’m thrilled to kind of see like what these next few years and beyond is going to look like because of that. I think most people were maybe a little skeptical, but then you like really see it firsthand, see the power of it, see what it can enable for you. You’re like, my gosh, like, OK, I’m in.

Chris Williamson (35:33)

It’s really interesting to see it too. Our interaction with data centers is pretty high and AI driven consumption, right? When I do think about it at night as I’m trying to fall asleep, I’m like, this is kind of like a crazy little frontier, right? We’re building all this electricity that is managed by AI that is consuming energy to optimize.

Wes Ashworth (35:59)

Exactly. Right. I know. It’s like one big circle. Cool.

Some of the other technologies. We’re talking about AI, we’re talking about machine learning, talking about storage, other sort of things beyond like batteries and storage. Like what other emerging technologies or new ideas make you most optimistic about the future of energy?

Chris Williamson (36:30)

There’s a couple ones, maybe EV charging, is incredible. Our ability to shape and change the way that we consume traditional energy and what that energy is and how we can use it to better our lives. I think that is really cool. I’m not currently an EV user myself, but I’m getting pretty damn close to pulling the switch on that one.

I see that as such an incredibly powerful technology on the way we do things. It’s the efficiency aspect to me. When I look at a product, I think that it wins when it’s efficient. I think that a lot of people take that word out of context when there’s social media conversations going on or some terms like efficiency predictability, they’re not really used right. I still see people that are saying, solar is unpredictable.

Like solar is the most predictable thing that we have. By the way, if it doesn’t work tomorrow, we have bigger problems than your power. Not too worried about that. I think we’re going to figure it out. Then when we talk about efficiency, it’s about that conversion effect of like, how are we handling this? It’s just an incredibly efficient energy source. When you look at EVs to internal combustion engines, the efficiency is not even close in a concept.

It’s not even in the same world at all. Like we’re talking about if internal combustion engines could be like 33 % efficient, everyone would be super stoked. Then we’re starting to see the efficiency of DC to AC conversion to drive a vehicle forward of being well over 80 % and pretty well every instance. We have inversion technology on the micros that is like 98.3 % efficient or greater.

These are incredible functions. We’re talking about decentralized power that is not having massive losses on the distribution network because they’re being consumed right there. These are powerful, powerful concepts. The next concept that is really bringing me a lot of excitement is the idea of DC distribution grids becoming more, a conversation, a concept and something that looks like it might be deployed.

We do have you small instances of DC distribution networks that already exist but for developing nations to go towards that is now actually possible. When you look at it, we have alternating current, I believe in it you know there’s a lot of conversations about like why how do we get here, I think the reality is that mass generation through rotational generation was possible at the time. You could build a big dam and you could make a lot of energy through that alternating current method.

DC as much as it’s more efficient just wasn’t practical at the time. But today with solar being the cheapest form of generation that you can get, energy storage becoming more effective and more cost effective daily. Those mediums are gonna change as well. I mean, we’re talking about LFPs today, but I don’t even know where the world goes tomorrow, the structure. It’ll get better, it’ll get cheaper just like everything else. I think DC grids ar something that I think is really, really exciting. Everything in my house is DC anyway. I got like two or three things maybe that are AC. Why are we pretending?

Wes Ashworth (39:34)

Right? True. For those that aren’t as familiar with that, in terms of DC power, AC power, why the grid is on one versus the other and things like that as well, too. Can you break that down a little bit so that way somebody with no electrical background, they can kind of get grasp what you mean when you say that DC power grids could play a big role in the future. Why do see so much potential there and what does that really mean?

Chris Williamson (40:01)

It really is that statement that everything we do is DC now. You my computer is actually DC powered. As much as I plugged it into the wall, that energy goes right to a converter and then it’s transferred to DC. The TV behind me, it’s DC. All of my electronics, DC. Your iPhone charger, that big old block, that’s a converter, right? It is all DC powered. Alternating current, to expand on that, is giant generation systems where we have turbines that are rotating to create that, they produce alternating current. But the losses are enormous on this too.

When you look at it, because it’s alternating, is going back and forth, if you will, in the most basic terms, there’s a lot of heat generated through that. The expansion and contraction of lines of flux are just a loss all under their own. Power systems, distribution systems are incredibly efficient. They don’t have the same losses. We increase the effectiveness of the process by doing that. I don’t know how we would get there in our type of grid because we are so reliant on these big generation points, right? But for developing areas, that’s where we’re seeing this come in.

The biggest adoption of cell phones was India, pretty much. One day there was like cell phones and then like a month later, everyone had a cell phone. It was easy to deploy because they didn’t have the infrastructure of that legacy investment of all these little cable lines all over the place. They were just like throw up some towers and let it rip boys. From that they had a very quick adoption of the technology. They weren’t trying to, like I had pointed before, shoehorn modern technology into legacy investments. We’re starting to see grids now that are developing that are looking at this and they’re like, why would I go alternating current? My primary source of generation is going to be solar. That’s really what we’re looking at is the cheapest form. You pair that with a battery and you end up with incredibly stable energy. Just kick it DC and let’s see what happens.

Wes Ashworth (41:43)

That’s cool. I appreciate you breaking that down. It’s one of those if you’re starting over, what would you do? As we get closer to time, couple more questions here. When you, and we talked about this a little bit, but when you look at where renewable energy is heading over the next decade, like what makes you the most hopeful? What makes you excited?

Chris Williamson (42:02)

I think one is the namesake change. We’re to go to modular. That really is going to mean we’re there. But it’s an effective sell what you got. When we were only able to support for remote power, that was the coin and the term that made sense. When we were cleaner but more expensive, we had to sell that value of green tech. I don’t know too many people that are really in this because it’s green.

I think that’s an awesome add-on and maybe what attracted them to it but the more they knew the more they started to understand all the other value ads. I think the biggest thing is is these types of term changes that legitimize the technology and the generation potential and the option for that. The inclusion of batteries is the thing like you can’t have one without the other that’s really where we are man batteries and solar go together.

It’s stated that there’s enough energy that impacts the state of Texas and I forget exactly what it is but like in like an hour or something the entire state absorbs enough energy from the sun that could power the globe for a year. That to me is a battery problem. Because if we could store it, we could discharge it. Generation is not a problem whatsoever. Distribution and storage are. Batteries are now here and distribution is mature enough, so I am attracted to the world with storage. The world where we can view output from energy derived from renewable resources like the sun, 24 hours a day, and building systems that are economical for this now. Weare currently starting to see that shift right now. Being able to see that is incredible.

Wes Ashworth (43:49)

I love that. Not exactly what I expected to hear, but I loved that every part of that. That was really cool. Great perspective there. I think a powerful note to start to conclude on just what’s possible and all of that as well. Final question, I’ll just make it really open one. Anything else you’d like to share, anything you’d like to leave the audience with, piece of advice, wisdom, anything and everything. The floor is yours and I’ll let you wrap it up.

Chris Williamson (43:55)

I would just tell people to just continue doing everything that we’re doing in this industry. I get to be part of an industry that has some of the most incredible participants in it. Every time I get to attend a solar convention or a conversation or even a provincial discussion, the people that come out that are the others in this team of the renewable space in Canada are incredible.

I learned so much from them. I just want everyone to just keep doing what they’re doing. Because look at where we’ve come. Lots of times that this maybe someone would want to say we should do this or we should do that. No. We should keep doing what we’re doing. When I got into solar you had to be crazy and rich to deal with me because it was so expensive and there was no good reason to do it other than it was awesome. Now we’re in a world where we are negotiating some of the most important power generation systems on the planet.

I don’t think that if you went back in time 15 years, people would be able to tell you where we’re standing now. It’s all because of these incredible people that have great ideas and great dreams and incredible commitment to their craft that we get to be here today. I’d say just let’s just keep doing exactly what we’re doing. We’re going in the right direction.

Wes Ashworth (45:24)

That’s powerful and a perfect note to end on. Keep after it, keep doing what you’re doing. I love that so much. With that, thank you so much for joining us, Chris. What I really loved about the conversations is just it cuts through the noise. You don’t talk about what could be. You’re working on what will be. It’s proof that, you know, this is just it’s here to stay. It’s an evolution that’s happening in real time. It’s an exciting time.

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