Green Giants – Episode 30

Bernard Brown (01:07)

Actually, yeah, it goes back to military service, believe it or not. I’m a veteran, and while I had the unique opportunity working with the California Army National Guard as a planner in emergency management and operations, and I learned the three pillars of national security were food, water, and energy. And the energy aspect in a disaster is one of the most critical functions that you’re trying to restore right away, whether it’s a hurricane, tornado, wildfire, it’s the deployment of energy.

And so that aha moment inspired me to go back to school and continue my lifelong learning. And that’s where I took up education at Texas A&M University, the Energy Institute, and realized that energy was the focus and the goal where I wanted to go.

Wes Ashworth (01:52)

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. And we’ll hit on several topics today. I want to kind of get into it. I think there’s some really good content here to discuss. And something we touched on briefly was just you’ve spoken about the need to move from, you know, renewable, in quotes, to sustainable. And there is an important distinction. So what do we risk, I guess, if we stick to renewable only narrative and help give us some insight on that?

Bernard Brown (02:17)

Well, this comes down to policymakers and lawmakers and outside influencers in the energy sector. When you say the term renewable, they’ve put a definition on it. The most common definition is wind and solar. And that’s fine, but hydro should be considered renewable if not sustainable and then waste to energy should also be considered a sustainable energy source because the human population continues to grow. The average person produces four pounds of trash a day.

The current behavior is to bury said trash and therefore that is not sustainable from a land standpoint, but the use of diverting that waste to a landfill is sustainable. So when you look at renewable energies, if we take away the possibility of the box definition of wind and solar, and we round it out to sustainable energy sources, you begin to have a broader, well-defined energy portfolio that can serve a community, a microgrid, or a larger region. As you know, the sun doesn’t always shine. You know, you get cloudy days. The wind is intermittent. So we want to look to maximize and capitalize those energy efficiencies and learn to optimize those energy needs and meet our current demands for energy.

Because in addition to, again, the human population is rising. That’s a fact. And the demand for energy is rising almost with it. And therefore, we have to have a pathway to cleaner energy. And we just have to have the right portfolio. So I think the term sustainable energy should be a broader, better sense of where we’re going because that’s at the end of the day, think that’s what we should lead toward.

Wes Ashworth (04:01)

Yeah, no, it makes a ton of sense. And another piece we hit on was just the reality of some energy trade-offs. So you pointed out that every energy solution has trade-offs, from lithium mining for batteries to wind turbine disposal. How can the industry do a better job of educating people about those realities without alienating them?

Bernard Brown (04:20)

It comes down to data points and you know, the data you put in is the data you get out. So if you exclude data points, like what is the true cost and impact of lithium mining? What equipment are you using? Are you using EV batteries? Are you using diesel or using renewable natural gas or you’re using biodiesel? But there is an impact to mining the lithium. There’s also an impact of disposing the lithium batteries and the windmill blades; there’s lubricants in the gensets or the for the wind turbines and where do those lubricants come from? Are they from fossil fuels? Are they from renewable sources or recycled sources is better, so I think we have to just be honest in that level of discussion.

When we say well renewables is the way to go well are we talking about are we including the critical minerals and those things, and are we talking how we got there to those critical minerals? But yes, they do generate and you shouldn’t avoid the fact that you are generating a sustainable electricity or power source from that, but let’s be honest with the whole picture is what I’m trying to educate and opine on.

Wes Ashworth (05:32)

Yeah, sure. And how do you approach, I guess, the challenge of communicating some of those trade-offs to stakeholders who might prioritize short-term gains over that long-term impact?

Bernard Brown (05:43)

Well, it comes down to how you do your project presentation. So as you’re developing the project, if you want to fully include a life cycle assessment or you want to include that data point in your front end load engineering process, that’s where that discussion needs to be had. From a policy standpoint, that’s a whole different pathway. And that’s where you have to educate lawmakers, local planning commissions, and the stakeholders involved that it’s not always what you’re being told, let’s tell the whole picture, that there will be a disposal aspect, there will be a life cycle aspect to these projects.

Wes Ashworth (06:20)

Yeah, and I think the other side of that, in a world that’s kind of clamoring for perfect solutions and sometimes that can be a real deterrent from this renewable journey, sustainable journey. But what’s the hardest truth about energy you wish more people understood?

Bernard Brown (06:34)

Energy is complicated. It is. And there’s no perfect solution. There’s no perfect answer. But the reality is our demand for energy is increasing. And so I think the hard truth is, what are you willing to sacrifice to have that energy portfolio or that solution? Are you willing to modify your behavior? Are you willing to pay more? What are those externalities and internalities are you willing to accept to have that energy portfolio you’re seeking? One of the things I bring forward is like people demonize fossil fuels and there’s trade-offs.

But I ask people, do you have a family member who has diabetes? And they look at me funny and they’re like, why do you ask that? Because we’re able to provide not a cure, but a solution, Lantus, through mass farming. And that’s very energy intensive, the farming aspect. So there’s a trade-off. Do you not want to do mass farming anymore? And then what energy source are you going to use to supplant that diesel or that fuel or the transportation, et cetera, that makes these problems engineered?

Wes Ashworth (07:46)

Yeah, no, without a doubt. And I think that’s the important part is you got to understand the full picture, know, understand some of those trade offs as you said too. And then the reality that there is no real perfect solution, you know, and it is a journey. It’s not a, and I’ve said this before, but it’s not an instant. Like we can’t get there overnight. It does take time. does take slow progress and incremental gains and things like that too. So thinking about that a little bit, it may be a little different flavor. So how do you balance optimism about new technologies with the realism of their challenges

Bernard Brown (08:17)

coming from a pyrolysis and gasification standpoint, I mean, there’s been a lot of challenges as you brought up. There’s always technology challenges. But I think what we’re looking at is right now we’re so used to instant gratification and we want instant success. And it takes time to use transitional technology to get there, not pointing fingers at nuclear reactors, but we’ve come a long way. And if you look at the safety record of the US Navy and the French, it’s impressive, but they’ve got there because of their processes, they’ve doubled down on the technology. So going to your question, it goes back to, you’re gonna have hiccups along the way in the technology.

So there’s a level of risk and how do you de-risk that? And one aspect with these hydrogen hubs, the government has kind of come in as an equity partner by de-risking projects. And that’s how this is going to work. You have to have an equity partner who’s willing to accept something a little bit higher risk and has a better risk tolerance to move these projects and these portfolios forward.

Wes Ashworth (09:26)

Yeah, and kind of just to branch off on that and get more into hydrogen for a moment. So for listeners, maybe less familiar with hydrogen. I think everybody’s heard at this point. It’s a topic that comes up a lot. I think people know very little about it when it comes down to it, I think sometimes. But can you explain why it’s such a critical piece of the sustainable energy puzzle and why Empire is betting big on it?

Bernard Brown (09:48)

So to say it’s a critical piece, it is a piece. Critical, I will defer on that word within there. It is an important piece. And the reason why I say it is because it’s an industrial gas that’s been around for a long time. It’s a $180 billion a year industry right now. What we’re doing is going back and looking, and there was failures in the hydrogen space. There were also wins. The West Sacramento fuel cell initiative during the early mid 2000s was close. were very, and those efforts kept going, but when the fossil fuel and gas dips below a certain price, we double down back to gasoline. But technology keeps moving forward. going back to what you said, why is Empire doubling down?

We found a very innovative and creative process in this hydrogen space. Part of our property in Fallinsburg, West Virginia does sit on a salt seam that lends itself to storage, but the first thing is you want to generate before you store it. So this is step one, the generation of the hydrogen. The other thing is Empire operates the Port of West Virginia, located along the Ohio River. There’s several initiatives, the Clean Ports initiatives, and there’s other areas where decarbonization of ports and transportation logistics.

So we at Empire felt it was we got to put our money where our mouth is and we can’t be a mouthpiece or a jawbone, we have to be a backbone in this space. So looking at the hydrogen space and looking at the process, why not generate clean hydrogen at the Port of West Virginia and use that energy at the Port of West Virginia, meeting two goals. One, we’re injecting clean hydrogen into the transportation energy space. And two, we’re utilizing it in a manner that meets the goals and objectives of the federal government by decarbonizing a port.

Wes Ashworth (11:42)

Yeah, and looking at sort of the future of hydrogen and from your perspective, and I think some of these are pretty common, but what are those biggest barriers to scaling hydrogen production and adoption today?

Bernard Brown (11:54)

Well, you’re up against almost 120 years of infrastructure in the oil and gas industry. And that’s one point. The other point is the oil and gas industry are known, they already know how to make hydrogen. They do it now at most refineries. So the challenge is the behavior shift and getting them on board coming into the hydrogen sector. That’s gonna be the first step. We don’t wanna alienate anyone who has experience or the ability to generate that energy source.

And so one, we have to embrace them as a partner in the energy journey involving hydrogen. Two, it’s again having early adopters and risk takers in shifting to a hydrogen fuel cell if that’s what you want to go for transportation, if that’s what you want to do for power. But it’s again finding how does hydrogen fit into your energy portfolio?

Wes Ashworth (12:46)

Yeah, and with that sort of follow up to that, are there specific industries or use cases where you see hydrogen making the fastest impact right away?

Bernard Brown (12:54)

Yes, micro grids, I believe, would be one of the first for power generation and then two, the trucking industry when it comes to transporting long hauls And again, EV, very good options for local, but when you’re talking long haul trucking, and I’m not an expert, there’s someone else I’ll give her credit, Lynn Lyon. She’s probably one of the most amazing women in the energy sector. I recommend you talking to her, but she educated us on why the use of EV batteries in the trucking industry, because it limits that load that’s set by the Department of Transportation because the way the battery, so if we can perfect hydrogen fuel cells, it still allows closer to a weight transfer or weight balance for shipping in the logistics side. And once you start getting those little pieces, it goes back to the combustion engine.

You had the Model T, you had Ford, that engine was adopted in aircraft. As one progresses, hopefully the other progresses and you’ll have experts in those field who are able to take from one area and maximize, optimize and become efficient. And that’s where you start to get momentum in a casual shift and change in energy.

Wes Ashworth (14:09)

Yeah, and I’ll shift a bit, just dig into something else with hydrogen. So you hear color coding a lot. And I know you’ve raised some concerns about the hydrogen color coding system. You hear green hydrogen and blue hydrogen and gray hydrogen. And I guess if you could design a better framework to evaluate hydrogen projects, what would that look like? What are some of thoughts there?

Bernard Brown (14:15)

Well, I go back to again, $180 billion industry. There was no color code for industrial hydrogen in that industry. And then all of a sudden now, someone, a group of people decide there’s a color code system. Well, what’s the benefit of having this color code system? It doesn’t change the value of what that hydrogen is. Hydrogen is a potential energy source, and so does it matter if it’s gray, blue, pink, or green? That to me is baffling.

What’s important, though, is the use of the hydrogen. Now if it came from natural gas, the CH4, that’s the methane, it’s a fossil fuel essentially. If it comes from an RNG, okay, but it still comes from waste diversion. If it came from electrolysis, what’s important is the cost of getting there. Not the color, the cost. And as long as you’re spending more money to get to that energy source, that is the problem. And that’s the challenge with doing this. where we’re going with this is, okay, let’s call it green hydrogen.

So it’s probably more expensive to go through the electrolysis process. Therefore, they attach government subsidies to make it more appealing. What happens when that government subsidy goes away? Your cost of hydrogen is going to increase and therefore it’s not a palatable energy source. So by putting these codes on it, all you’re doing is really manipulating the price and cost of that hydrogen.

Wes Ashworth (15:59)

Yeah, makes sense. It’s a good thought. The other thing I wanted to hit on and spend some time here, because you shared a bold statement with me and I want to dig into this and kind of double click it a little bit. you describe this like this current state as kind of this Rockefeller moment, which is a bold, very bold statement. Can you share why you believe we’re on the verge of something transformative like that and what lessons history teaches us?

Bernard Brown (16:26)

Right, wrong, or indifferent. Rockefeller, it kind of goes back to your title of your thing, the titans of renewable energy. The Rockefellers, when Standard Oil was going through its trials and tribulations, doubled down. He did not, you know, even though he’s broken apart. And again, I encourage your listeners to read The Prize if they have not read The Prize because that journey is outlined. And he had a waste product, the gasoline, and he turned that gasoline into a very powerful energy source that propelled the United States.

And this is our Rockefeller moment with hydrogen, because we have one of most talented workforce in the world. have some of the brightest and most intelligent people in the academic settings. You have the right team of people. And again, we have the right financial instruments in markets to do this. This is our Rockefeller moment to bring all of those together to propel hydrogen as an energy source that becomes effective and useful in our transportation and power grids.

Wes Ashworth (17:33)

Yeah, and if this is a Rockefeller moment for hydrogen, what do you think the energy sector can learn from the oil boom era to avoid some of those pitfalls that we saw then?

Bernard Brown (17:44)

Well, yeah, that’s a very interesting question. I mean, the oil boom, again, we’re talking over 100 years more, going back to McDonald, Pennsylvania, when they discovered oil there. So the lessons learned is that it cost a lot of money that they didn’t get government subsidies back then, and they took a lot of risk. And so we have to look at the oil and gas industry that the risk that they took in the initial beginning got us to where we are now.

You know, whether you’re talking about, and again, I don’t want to talk about the greenhouse gas perspective, just talking about how we’ve evolved as a society. And so we have to learn that you’re going to have to be a risk taker. You’ve got to have an appetite for risk in order to make that change. It’s, a friend of mine once told me, you don’t know if that parachute is going to open until you jump. So we got to jump. We have to take steps. We can’t sit on the sideline and watch it pass us by.

Wes Ashworth (18:46)

Thinking about that investment side, so what role do you see for private investors in realizing, I think, this transformative moment for hydrogen? What role and what opportunity do you feel like exists for them?

Bernard Brown (19:01)

The banks and the financial, those sectors and even family offices, private equity firms, they have a unique opportunity to come in and take and be early adopters or invest the money and hedge and lower that risk. That’s the big thing. The other thing is by them becoming advocates and them becoming involved, them becoming stakeholders, it starts to shift the perception and the view of how these projects are funded. And I go back to the federal government and hydrogen hubs. There was a lot of discontention. There was some people who opposed it and felt it was not the best use. The federal government essentially did was, they said we’re willing to take a risk to help this sector move forward.

So with that private equity firm A, family office B, whatever, you should also follow suit, get on board and help us finance these projects because you are a critical piece of the energy path forward. We need them. We need them to participate.

Wes Ashworth (20:12)

Absolutely, and a lot of them. Any of them that are coming, we’ll take them. So switching up a little bit just to Empire’s unique approach and Empire turning food waste and sludge into hydrogen with a negative carbon intensity score. Can you walk us through a little bit of how this works? What makes this process so groundbreaking?

Bernard Brown (20:14)

Sure, some of it is proprietary, but some of it’s not. But at the basic level, the process flow, we are diverting food waste, fats, oil, greases, dairy waste, other vegetable waste, bad meat, things that would normally go into trash be discarded. So there’s the diversion. So that material that normally finds its way to a landfill or some ways else, you’ve now diverted those greenhouse gases. Sludge, that’s normally land applied, that’s no longer being land applied. Even when sludge is land applied, you’ll still have some volatile organic compounds coming off the back. You may have some PFOS, which is a very touchy topic.

Here, we take that material, put it in a digester, and recover the methane that’s produced by the decomposition. but we’ll get to the digestate, the PFOS. We’ve partnered with one of the best companies I know, Heartland Technologies, and we’re using their gasifier to split the carbon and the hydrogen from the methane chain, recovering that carbon and using that hydrogen as an energy source. Then we’re taking the digestate out of it and gasifying that also. Therefore, we’re really reducing and limiting any material from going to a landfill or being, we’re trying to maximize the value chain in the entire process.

Wes Ashworth (21:54)

Yeah, it’s super fascinating. Is there any, I guess, challenge behind convincing communities and regulators to support those waste energy projects and, given some of the stigma around waste management?

Bernard Brown (22:08)

Yes, and part of the thing with the hydrogen hub is there are strong community benefits action plans that are required for each project. So we do have to engage the community. We have to educate them and allow them to participate and be part of the process. And part of that, you’re going to have common things like, what about the smell from the digester? What about the emissions? Those are all valid and very important questions, and so we have to show them how we’ve engineered around that, whether our buildings are under negative pressure to reduce smells and odors.

We’re using very detailed hazard process analysis, again, using some of the brightest and best engineers to make sure that our process is safe and it’s done efficiently and optimized. The big thing we have to educate them is you don’t want gases leaking. That’s one of the big things. Well, you’re going to be venting. Well, no, because we’re venting, we’re losing money. We’re losing money. If gases are escaping, that’s revenue. I always show on a draw. That’s a dollar size leaving your project that you don’t want to lose. So you want to be efficient as possible. The other thing too is showing them the benefits, that we’re trying to give them cleaner fuels for their community.

Wes Ashworth (23:09)

Yeah, it’s good stuff. And I know like you hit on several of those, probably the concerns that come up most most commonly and questions that people ask. I appreciate you touching on that. The other thing we talked a little bit about was just the importance of projects that can stand on their own economically, that are somewhat subsidy and independent or can stand on their own. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how does that influence your approach to financing and partnerships and everything else?

Bernard Brown (23:47)

Sure, so I go back to my days as a developer. had really great mentoring and Jeff Snyder was that mentor and he taught me a project’s gotta stand on its own two feet. And then when I went to go work for Empire, I brought that mentality with me and when we were trying to do the Hydrogen project, there was a lot of discussion around the 45E tax credits and everything. So I had to show my board and the CEO that this project would stand on its own two feet, meaning in the absence that the federal subsidies go away, this project will survive and still be profitable and hit its unlevered return rate, and I’ve taken that philosophy through all my project development experience and project design that how do you design a project, especially in the energy space, especially the waste to energy space that stands on its own two feet? And that’s what you have to do.

Here you just have to find multiple revenue streams for that project. But here’s the other thing too. With waste to energy, you have to make sure that you’re competing against landfill pricing. So in not just addition the subsidy aspect, but it’s always cheaper to put material in the ground. That’s a behavior that you’re fighting against. So the project not only has to be to stand on its own two feet, it has to withstand the behavior of the current action that’s going on, which is landfilling. How do we compete against landfilling? So you design multiple revenue streams and maximizing every opportunity coming off that project design to generate revenue so it stands on its own two feet.

Wes Ashworth (25:21)

Yeah, I love that. Can you give any examples that you can share in terms of kind of like how that came to life and again, thinking about some of those revenue streams and again, just thinking about some of the challenges of designing a project that is subsidy independent and then how you’ve overcome it.

Bernard Brown (25:38)

So number one, this was not done independently by myself. We had a fantastic team that came together. I like the term nimble, but I was told not to use nimble, that we’re scrappy, whatever you want to do. It was a team concept. You bring together smart people, you get them, start putting ideas together, and you start hearing the collaboration come to life. You start seeing the smart people in the room say, what about this?

What about that? And you know, okay, you’re going to have digestate from this project. Well, is there a way to capture revenue stream off the digestate? And is there a way to capture revenue stream off the carbon as we separate the carbon and the hydrogen? And so when you have your team members and you allow them to freely think, put ideas out there, and become productive, the project starts to come together. Then the other part is you’ve got to bring in like your CFO, you have to bring in those finance people because they’re modeling your ideas as you move along.

And so you’re kind of finding out, okay, what’s going to work, what’s not going to work. And then the project starts to come out or as you know, sometimes the projects don’t. But here, it was a natural progression of, okay, how do we make money from the waste? How do we make money from the digestate? How do we make money from the carbon? And here’s the big one. The federal government gave a kind of a quasi-mandate that they wanted a dollar a kilogram. That’s aggressive.

We got close. We’re one the cheapest levelized costs of hydrogen in the United States. And there’s a reason why they set that mandate. We’re up against gasoline and what you pay at the pump. You don’t wanna pay that much money more for hydrogen if you have a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. So the way you get there in a new, going back to you to say the new process, new technology, because you have a lot of upfront costs that are gonna be higher than 100 years of known infrastructure in the gasoline industry.

You have to be able to maximize revenue streams across the board to get close. And over time, just like the oil and gas industry, we’re going to get better. It’s going to improve. And you may get there, to $1 kg. You may get close.

Wes Ashworth (28:01)

Yeah, I think that’s where a lot of those breakthroughs come, right? They’re really aggressive goals set, get really smart people in the room. You really encourage that sort of creativity and problem solving and it’s amazing you accomplish things that you didn’t think you could in that environment. So yeah, I think a ton of wisdom shared there.

Bernard Brown (28:19)

We call this our moonshot. We did because a lot of people were like, well, who’s Empire? How are you going to get in the hydrogen hub? And I do appreciate, again, going back to risk, our CEO, Frank Rosso, empowered me. And so did Bill Torto, our chairman of the board and Scotty Weziak, our president. They all said, go do it. Take your moonshot. And then we won.

And it’s been an incredible journey. And it comes back to the leadership of your organization trusting you and giving you that power, that empowerment to go do it, to bring us to that level.

Wes Ashworth (28:54)

Yeah, it’s huge. I’ll transition a little bit, I want to touch on something else that we had mentioned in previous conversation around just the four pillars, site control, permitting, financing, feedstock, off-take security, that you mentioned as the critical pillars of a successful project. I guess which of those pillars tends to be the biggest bottleneck and how does Empire overcome it? Just wanted to understand a little bit more about that topic.

Bernard Brown (29:20)

One of the most critical, well, it depends who you’re talking to. One day in a room, you’re to say, your feedstock and your offtake are critical because if you don’t have the material and you don’t have the offtake, then you don’t have the project. I agree. That’s a true statement. But in my world, in my vision, in my opinion, since you asked, I believe financing is the most critical. If you don’t have the money to do the project, you’re not going to get it done. When we propose this idea in the state of West Virginia, they have been the EDA. The economic development has been a great advocate for us. They have done the bond allocations for the projects. A lot of people think, West Virginia oil and gas.

No, there’s a lot of wind in West Virginia. There’s solar in West Virginia, and now there’s hydrogen coming. And the state has been a wonderful partner in making sure that we had bond allocations to do this project. So going in, the financing pathway is there. That way, it’s not the bottleneck. We’ve de-risked that bottleneck.

That now goes back to, like you said, the feedstock and the offtake. The other thing though, the pillar of site control. If you don’t have the site locked up, where are you going to build your project? Can you even build it there? And then can you permit the project? to me, financing is probably one of the most critical pillars. And you’ve got to be able to speak. You have to have a relationship with the banking people. You have to. They are, again, a critical stakeholder in any project you do.

Wes Ashworth (30:35)

Yeah, and that segues into another topic we touched on, which was just the difference between project development, project management, some of those distinctions, some of that skill set that’s different that you need there. Can you help us understand that a little bit better and give some insight?

Bernard Brown (31:06)

I have a couple of master’s degrees. And one thing I’ve always looked at, and at A&M I was grateful that I had to do a project management course, but what I wasn’t seeing in that course was, I can manage the project. I understand the SWOT analysis and all those things, but how do you develop a project? And that has come through experience and mentoring, by the way, people who have been kind enough to take me under their wing and impart their knowledge with me. where I’m going with this is I think we, as a collective, as an industry have to educate either formally or make sure that we’re mentoring our people on how to develop these projects because project development is a science.

I do believe that. You’ll hear some people say it’s an art. Well, no, there’s a pattern you have to follow and there are details you have to know. You have to know how to locally permit something. You have to understand what permits apply. You have to understand, what cycle do you bring in the financing? What cycle do you start your basic engineering? And that is project development, not project management.

Wes Ashworth (31:54)

Without a doubt. And switching gears a little bit, just thinking about some of the future things. So when you look 10 or even 20 years ahead, what does the energy landscape look like? What role will hydrogen, waste energy, and other technologies play from your perspective?

Bernard Brown (32:24)

So my delusion of grandeur is that it’s a robust energy diverse where the solar panels on our roofs get better. They’re fully integrated. The wind turbines are better maximized and become more efficient, that nuclear energy has a home at some point because of the mass populations. But in the hydrogen, my dream is the hydrogen fuel cells in the vehicles. That’s where my passion is, we’re seeing hydrogen go. It’s not that I displace oil and gas, it has its place for right now, but you said in the future, I’d like to see a hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as the baseline.

There’s nothing wrong with EVs, but I don’t want to wait eight hours or six hours to charge my vehicle. I want to be able to charge up rather fast and go. And that’s why I think that’s a good option.

Wes Ashworth (33:25)

Yeah, but the concern you hear is hydrogen is combustible and not safe. That always comes up and it’s funny. I find myself kind of like redirecting that, all the time in conversations just with friends and people like that. So I’ll let you talk about that. Go ahead and dispel that.

Bernard Brown (33:31)

So I am not a hazard process analysis expert. Again, you have to get the team, but there are companies out there who have invested already a lot of money on storage, on transporting, on doing this and I can’t, I might get corrected here, I have not to date learned of any vehicle fuel cells that have caught fire and, but again, it’s probably happened and this hasn’t been reported, but I have not seen it. The fuel cells are getting better and better on the technology side.

Ballard is probably one of the best known in the industry for their hydrogen fuel cells. There are buses running currently on their fuel cells. There’s industries, companies like Chart Industries, Chicago Bridge and Iron, those two companies have put their own money into their own designs to make sure that hydrogen is stored safely and transported safely. Jillian Ivanko has done a fantastic job at Chart Industries leading them as a critical transporter of hydrogen. So to your point, there are dangers, but just like with nuclear and the Navy, they’ve done a fantastic job. allow those smart people to keep doing the job that they’re doing and we’re going to get even better.

Wes Ashworth (34:54)

Yeah, the thing I always say and maybe, you I’m not an expert in this, but gasoline is combustible and dangerous. Like we’re used to dealing with gas on a regular basis in our normal lives, that yes, there are inherent dangers, there are risks, but there are also, you know, safety protocols in place and things in place where we can make it safe. So I think that can’t be ignored either when you look at that comparison.

Bernard Brown (35:02)

So Wes, one thing you’ll learn from me, I don’t bash other industries. I just won’t because we need them. We need to work together with them. So gasoline, while it has some negatives, it has positives. And just like hydrogen has some negatives, it has positives. Wind, same. We all have to learn to work together and figure out how we fall within the portfolio. But you’re going to have naysayers, like you said. You’re going to have people out there pointing out the flaws and okay, nothing is 100%.

There’s always a potential for danger. But if you allow the people who specialize, who’ve devoted their careers, their academic lives to figure those problems out and bring them into your team, you’re gonna get there.

Wes Ashworth (36:02)

Yeah, no, that’s good. Well said. Thinking about some other things. So what are some areas of innovation that excite you the most right now? And are there any underappreciated technologies or approaches that we should pay more attention to?

Bernard Brown (36:13)

I’m a thermal guy, so I like the gasification industry and pyrolysis. They’re very underrated. They’re often described as incinerators. They’re not. as they evolve, and they will, again, I believe that waste to energy, that’s the path forward, no longer putting MSW in the ground. I really would like to see gasifiers and other thermals get better and better and improve to the point where we’re no longer landfilling.

Wes Ashworth (36:44)

Yeah, agreed. And then thinking also just about, you know, not just technologies, but the future of talent and energy talent. So you’ve talked about the need for just hybrid skill sets and, you know, engineers who can develop projects. And then I’m a big advocate of that, of like attracting the best, brightest talent into the industry that we can. But how do we cultivate the next generation of leaders who can build the future of sustainable energy?

Bernard Brown (37:08)

It’s our youth and it starts at the education level, as it starts about middle school, high schools start teaching sustainability in that process and it’s not just the energy people, you need the welders, need the electricians. You need the people who are going to be driving the material moving the logistics and so it comes from an integrated standpoint and it’s either through junior colleges, through four-year colleges, through on-the-job training, apprenticeships.

I think the unions can play a major role in the energy transition by adopting sustainable practices and being part of that transition. And again, the four-year institutions and your graduate degrees being flexible in their degree programs and adopting sustainable engineering, sustainable design, things of those natures and pinpoints to help develop the future talent that’s going to carry us forward when you and I are no longer here, Wes.

Wes Ashworth (38:10)

Yeah, and some of you hit on earlier was just how powerful mentors have been in your life. Looking back in your career, what advice or wisdom from a mentor has stuck with you and maybe shaped your approach of your work today?

Bernard Brown (38:23)

So there was a gentleman, I’m not gonna name names, but he once told me, I was trying to get into the private equity world. I wanted to be on the other side of the desk because in this industry, see the private equity, when you start closing projects and you’re cutting checks and you’re like, who are these people? Why are they making all this money? So I wanted to get in the private equity side.

He was a mentor of mine, but he said, you’re not the guy. He told me that, says, you’re not the guy. And it motivated me to go back to school. It motivated me to keep going back to school. And what he did inadvertently was make me a lifelong learner. And by being a lifelong learner, it has allowed me the opportunity to continue to learn both from academics and people in your classrooms. Like the last degree I got was finally from Virginia Tech and I’m very proud of that degree because I always wanted to be a Hokie.

But when I was in class, I had people around me who were a lot younger and they’re looking and they’re like, are you a professor? I’m like, no, no, I’m just here to learn. I’m a student. I just want to learn. And it’s important to humble yourself and be able to step back and say, I want to learn from not only the academics, but like in grad school, programs you have people working their way through college again and they have perspectives they have industry knowledge that maybe you might not know about and if you listen they’ll share it and so believe it or not they become a mentor they become an educator and so listening is critical

Wes Ashworth (39:44)

Yeah, that is so good.

I agree completely, just that curious mindset. And I think what’s important too is just hearing from different perspectives as well. mean, hearing all sides of the table, just listening, being open. You don’t have to agree with it, but listen, be curious, ask questions. I mean, I think that is such a key to life and success. And I think, what we need is to propel our industry forward and get to where we want to go. I think it is going to take a lot of that mindset. So, no, I love you sharing that As we get closer to time, I want to give a couple, a couple quick, interesting questions. thinking about hydrogen or renewable energy, you know, as a whole. So what’s the most common myth about hydrogen or renewable energy that you’d love to bust right now?

Bernard Brown (40:40)

Well, I’ve heard it’s a bomb. It’s a bomb. You know, it’s going to explode. Again, it’s an industrial gas. It’s being used more than people realize. It’s a $180 billion industry. Allow that industry to come into the energy space and become part of the portfolio. That hydrogen is safe and it can be used effectively in our energy mix.

Wes Ashworth (40:44)

Yeah, and maybe it’s that, but if you could change one common belief about hydrogen or renewable energy just overnight right now, what would it be?

Bernard Brown (41:13)

The politicalization of energy. That no one political party should own energy. And that, I could change anything between renewable, sustainable and hydrogen, is it should not be a tool used in politics. That energy is something that’s critical to our daily lives. We have built our society around it and it should not be used in political jockeying or lawmaking or fights. Energy should be bipartisan and it should be best for the community as a whole.

Wes Ashworth (41:43)

I agree wholeheartedly. I didn’t even prep you or anything on that question, but you just had that ready to go and that was so good. I agree completely. What’s one thing listeners, whether they’re policymakers, business leaders, or just energy enthusiasts, what’s something that they can do to accelerate the transition to a sustainable energy future?

Bernard Brown (42:08)

Believe it or not, your own behavior is a first step forward. So recycling your plastics, recycling your aluminum, separating your food waste. Those are individual steps that don’t have to be legislated. They don’t have to be mandated. Those are steps we can take as individuals that when you start doing it in a collective front and start doing it, you start making a difference. You start making changes. So that’s the number one. Number two, again, like you said, listen to all parties.

Because there may be a little bit of diamond information in that statement. There may be some knowledge that you didn’t know about that they’re going to all of sudden give you the aha or give you that information you need to move your desire, your projects forward. Listen, and the other thing is be open to innovative changes when it comes to energy. We can’t be closed minded. Don’t demonize other people’s ideas when they’re trying to move energy forward.

Wes Ashworth (43:09)

So well said. And final point, final question. So what’s next for Empire Diversified Energy and how can our audience follow and support your journey?

Bernard Brown (43:19)

Well, next is hopefully the future developments. Full disclosure, Empire is being merged with a company called Vivacore. So that is the next step. Vivacore is a midstream company based out of Dallas, Texas. They are acquiring Empire Diversified Energy. So you can follow our journeys. Like I like to tell people, follow our journey. You can follow us on LinkedIn, our website, and you’ll see that hopefully Empire will start to deploy additional projects to help divert food waste and create renewable, sustainable energies for our country.

Wes Ashworth (43:53)

Yeah, perfect. And I’ll add some of those links in the show notes as well, too, for those out there that want to check them out. But that wraps up another insightful episode of Green Giants. A huge thank you to Bernard for sharing your expertise and vision for more sustainable energy future. This is definitely a fun conversation. So your work and beyond is a testament to what’s possible when innovation meets purpose. If you’re as inspired as we are, be sure to check out Empire’s work. Connect with Bernard to stay updated on their groundbreaking projects.

Bernard Brown (43:57)

Thank you.

Wes Ashworth (44:20)

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