Green Giants – Episode 50

Aaron Pyfferoen (04:13)

Yeah, I think we had a role as we rolled into those early years, we formed a team and at one time you were one person. Then you added people on. One cool thing we did is we took it from basically when I started that role, call it the recon role in 09 and 10, by 16 we were the number one EPC for deploying renewable energy in North America. That was a cool thing, and that certainly wasn’t all on my shoulders.

People who were there to people we work with. I mean, it’s a long list of people who deserve credit. Right. So, I think when you talk about the many hats and things I wore, I mean, it is like when there were some times when you were a field engineer that you felt like I am a secretary with a four-wheel drive pickup truck, right? It was just the accounting and the tracking and the time cards and the and as you grew in the roles, you understand that those little fundamentals are critically important to cost forecasting, to having a good job history, to making sure people get paid the right amounts and just keeping tabs on the contract, right? So that was, I’m gonna have a few lessons that I think I’m gonna hit on. And that was one of them is that job site experience is a great educator, and don’t discount the little things, right? Cause they add to the value cycle.

Wes Ashworth (05:26)

Yeah. Any other key lessons from starting in the field? And you know, that’s not always a path that ends up at VP, but it’s really cool when it happens. I would think, though, that does give you some unique advantages. Is there anything that you feel like, man, because of your time there, being in the field, being a field engineer, to your role now, how that helps you in different ways?

Aaron Pyfferoen (05:50)

Yeah, I think the value of leadership, like being in the field, it’s not always about having the technical skills, knowing what bolt needs to go here or the size of the wire design. It’s how to get people to all be aligned and move in the right direction. I think people are the greatest asset to any company. And when I look at the leadership I want to be, the leader I want to be, or the leaders I’ve had, great leaders give you the tools to think for yourself and for you to be a great leader.

And there are some small life lessons like, it’s a small world, treat people with respect. I have had people across from me, you know, like a PC role, maybe I was a project manager that I was frustrated with. And this is the customer side of it. And you took that person, you walked them through the challenges, you helped them understand, and you were always very cordial. And I know that I’m the one particular individual, I think it is now a VP at a large developer, right? So, it’s, you never know where people are going to go, right? And I think, I think, yeah.

Wes Ashworth (06:37)

Yeah, right. Absolutely. I think, especially in this industry as well, it’s kind of tight-knit. Eventually, you’ll probably end up crossing paths with that individual again later on, if not sooner. So yeah, that’s a really cool one there.

Aaron Pyfferoen (06:52)

It’s always like if you’re to put the work in, you are going to rise faster. Those willing to put in the work make a difference. The one, one that folks who know me around here in the past life, is don’t take yourself too seriously, right? Well-timed humor is a good thing. Poorly timed humor can be a bad thing, but every now and then, you need that to break a crowd, you get a laugh, and get back on task, and you know, sometimes this helps break tensions.

Wes Ashworth (07:04)

No, absolutely. I agree. It’s worth its weight in gold sometimes. A couple of other things. You mentioned in a previous conversation, you’ve worked in Pennsylvania, Texas, Oregon, and even overseas in China and other places. How did those experiences shape your perspective on the industry and the opportunity it provides, just seeing it across different areas and countries?

Aaron Pyfferoen (07:34)

But I’m going to give you a couple of synopses here. First job out of that project out in Pennsylvania, and sometimes you get a little NIMBYism and some opposition against renewables. But that particular job was at a sandwich shop in Weymark, Pennsylvania. And I remember going in there. The job was kind of winding down. I was buying the crew some breakfast sandwiches. And I was kind of talking to that business owner. he’s like, you know, and I’ve known by this time.

He’s like, Aaron, I have now made more money this year than I have in the last 10 years. And before you guys came to town, we were going to close the doors in the shop, right? And just that one year of economic boom to that guy probably set him up for the rest of his life, right? I mean, it’s something that will at least allow him to make different decisions. So, it’s something being a good neighbor, the contribution you’re making to the local community. I mean, people talk about taking farmland out of production and putting solar, but we think of what you’re doing in that farmer’s legacy and his ability to carry that family farm forward because he took a portion of his most likely least productive land and sold it off for solar, right?

So, it is about being that good neighbor, the benefit of local communities. thought it was kind of eye-opening. You know, your kid from small town Minnesota, and you get out there and you see that. And then, as my career progressed, right? I think I’ll say, like at that time, construction was superintendents, project managers, estimators, right? And then the support staff in the back of the home office. And as you get into more, the role of especially as I got into project manager, the business development role, and then the manager procurement role, I realized how many opportunities are actually created.

When you, where’s that material coming from? Where’s that raw material coming from? There’s a guy out mining that copper that’s going to go in that cable that they’re going to strewn out and ship to your job site. And it’s, it’s the parts and pieces that all, all take to come in, and guess what, they have marketing folks, right? And then we had a lot more engagement with our marketing folks, a lot more engagement with purchasing sales folks, people driving trucks. I mean, it just, the amount of, and there are some numbers out there, know, renewables, solar’s 276,000 people, numbers like that, but it’s so much greater because it is all those other services that go into supporting the building of these projects, right? So I think, like the time in China was more factory visits, you know, trying to understand the supply chain and things like that, but it was just the people, the work that goes on place there. I mean, it was very eye-opening to me that it’s a heck of a network on the web once you start looking at it, so.

Wes Ashworth (09:50)

Yeah, without a doubt. I love the story with the sandwich shop owner, and that’s probably what you don’t hear about, right? People don’t think about those types of effects and how that all plays in. But that’s cool, that’s such a cool, cool story. Another thing I know you’re really passionate about, and KE is passionate about, is just the on-the-job training apprenticeship program, helping kids and the next generation get excited about the trades and the industry.

I know you’re engaging students as early as kindergarten, even to spark an interest in construction and energy careers, which I love. Why is this so important, and what impact are you seeing?

Aaron Pyfferoen (10:28)

I mean, we hit on two programs here. We have the Operation Trades Awareness program, which is a program where K is out in that kindergartener, hitting people in sixth grade, hitting the seniors. And I think it comes from a little bit of like Carl, who’s our CEO, had a guidance counselor tell him that if you don’t go to college, you’re not going to amount to anything. Right. mean, I take my talent. So, he carries a little chip on his shoulder from that. Right. Which is a great thing. Right. So, with that, he’s investing back into these schools.

And it’s fun to go out. You go to the kindergartners, read a book, a construction book, right? Get them kind of exposed to it. We’re taking field trips and bringing kids out, showing them sites, and hopefully by the time they get to be a senior, they’re aware that at least these opportunities exist, right? And they get a little toolbox we send them off with as a senior, and they are. I think to me, it’s not just educating that kid. It’s like that parent comes home and looks at what the potential wage earning of being in the trades is, and they’re like, that’s more money than I make, right?

So mean, it’s kind of, it’s fun to see that, right? I mean, when you have somebody come up to you excited after you have a conversation with them, it’s super cool. And they’re like, I never knew that opportunity existed. How do I get? How do I learn more? How do I get involved? I mean, that’s very satisfying. And it is a, I think we’re in 22 different schools between Southern Minnesota, Goodhue County, now into Illinois, we’re expanding that program. So, it’s making people aware of what’s out there and the opportunities there. And college isn’t for everybody, right? So, it’s, if you have a path and you got a plan, go. That’s great, right? But it’s not for everybody. And then there are ways to make good, just as good, and better livings not going to college, right?

Wes Ashworth (12:00)

Without a doubt. And you touched on a little bit, but I was gonna ask, so what kind of feedback are you hearing from schools or parents, or students? Like, what are some things you hear from maybe the aha moments or things that were just eye-opening for them?

Aaron Pyfferoen (12:14)

I think there are parents out there who, until they brought the fire home that I had their hands like they were hell bent their kid had to go to college, right, and then like wait a minute, you aren’t all that great. You don’t enjoy school, but you really like building stuff and just creating opportunities for people that go do something they’re passionate about and live a very fulfilling life right

Wes Ashworth (12:18)

Exactly. We desperately need a lot of those people, you know, and you look at the gaps that are there in the workforce, there just aren’t going to be enough people at all to do what we need to do. So, there are these like really high-paying jobs, satisfying jobs that are hands-on and you get to do something you love, where you make a great living, and it’s a great career, and we’ve helped plenty of people find those, and it needs more attention. So, I’m glad you guys are doing the programs that you are and starting as early as kindergarten. I love it.

Aaron Pyfferoen (12:57)

And then as we get into the apprenticeship program, I think there was a, the last IRA in the keep mandating that you have to have apprentices to build jobs of a certain size and things. And KE was already ahead of that. So that’s what to me, it was cool. It kind of forced our hand a little bit, but we already had a plan. We’re set to roll it out. And that is a program where we bring those kids on the OTA program, come through, even, even new hires. And we have a five-year program to get them to be a journeyman.

So, it’s something that we’re investing in, I think it’s three hours a night. sit down, they go through school the most, most weeks, weeks out of the year, testing. I mean, the goal is that we’re, we’re creating homegrown JWs, right? And helping them get through that program. And that is, we have that in the electrical trades, we have it in the laborers, we’re looking at doing some operator stuff. I mean, it is something that, it’s gives somebody a target, right? And with each step in that program, you get a little higher wage, you gain more skills, and you become more marketable.

I mean, it’s, it’s something that we certainly have a culture of constant improvement learning at KE. and apprenticeship programs example that really, it’s I think my first when I first came in here 19, they had KEU right which is this university program they were still one night every other week or one week they’d work on a particular item that the company felt they needed to train to and I think that apprenticeship program just it’s building upon what KEU started.

So, it’s cool, it’s something to be proud to be part of it and it’s a seven-figure investment, I mean it’s not a light lift right, but it’s something that is going to carry people forward and shows that they have a future and we’re willing to help build it. We don’t just need to do the work we want. Generally, want people to improve their lives and live their best life.

Wes Ashworth (14:31)

Yeah, love it! Making a huge impact. Obviously, I think a lot of companies you see that they’re winning that sort of labor, you’re going after that talent, and harnessing that talent. They’re doing a lot of that sort of thing. Like it’s the internships and it’s starting early and getting in schools and bringing awareness and those sorts of things as well, too. So, I really do think that’s the best in class. You look at the industry, probably any industry, that’s somehow related to some industrial processes or construction, manufacturing, whatever it might be, those are probably the highest degree of like, that’s what success looks like, and building up the next generation of talent.

I know another thing with that, and your passion is topics, just firsthand experience, and engaging with students at college career fairs, and sharing insights about the industry. And I love that you’re very down to earth, very candid. What’s your core message to students considering a career in renewable energy or construction, and how do you guide them to see that long-term potential?

Aaron Pyfferoen (15:24)

Well, I still make it a point to get back to the Harvard Midwest, known as Minnesota State University. And those guys that hear this, they’ll know that it’s always kind of a joke that we make. So, we make it a point to get back to career fairs and share opportunities in the renewable and power market in general, right? That when they’re standing in front of you, kind of tell them, started this exact same place you are at, one of these career fairs, talking to people. And the opportunity to continue to evolve and learn is there. And there’s going to be a need for power in this country.

I mean, at KE, we do stuff specifically about power; there’s going to be a need for food processing and things like that. So, there are ways to bridge, you know, whatever career you want to choose, and coming into KE, coming out of school. I talked a little bit about the opportunities, and even I think back when I was that age, you did take PM, estimator, engineer, it wasn’t so much there. There’s an opportunity in purchasing, there’s an opportunity in marketing, and there’s an opportunity in BD.

I mean, maybe he didn’t think about those other roles, right? He kind of shares those roles with kids. And I always tell him, like, mean, living on the road, when you get out, the opportunity to do it is now, right? So, in the experience, I mean, I’ve been to, I think mostly with Blattner, I don’t think it was Hawaii and Alaska, but I’ve been to like 47 different states between Blattner and KE, right? And like I, a lot of that was in a previous life, but it’s get the opportunity to go out and see the world a little bit, right?

So, it’s something that is just a great way to see the world bank some cash, gain some experience, right? And those experiences will carry you through life, right? I just kinda, I mean, fortunately, I feel like a lot of places I’ve been, people are always good people, right? I mean, in reality, there are occasionally you come across, but for the most part, I think of every place I’ve been, you meet good people, you bring people into a crew, they’re good people. I mean, that’s our experience in Illinois, people out of the inner city of Chicago, I mean, down in Texas, we’re seeing all that right now, that means.

The other day people are good people. They just need an opportunity to prove that. So, I mean, I pushed, if you could travel now, do it. Because it’s something that’s pretty cool. I look back on pretty fondly in those moments of my life. Right. I also get a bunch of frequent flyer miles too. So, it’s, it all works out. Right.

Wes Ashworth (17:19)

Carry you on, yeah. No, it is so important, and I try to encourage young professionals and do that as well. It’s like, you know, it’s a lot easier before you have a family, and you know how all these responsibilities and all this stuff are going on. It’s like, go out there, you know, experience, see the world, travel, you know, learn different things. That’s the time to do it. So, I love that vein.

Aaron Pyfferoen (17:51)

It’s much easier to travel than start to slow it down. You’re traveling. kind of how I did it, where I versus being somebody that doesn’t travel and take a full-time position, right? It just, you’re not conditioned for your significant others. Your family is conditioned for it. And once they, if they do get conditioned for it at the beginning, it’s just, it’s an easier transition.

Wes Ashworth (17:55)

Yeah, no, absolutely. Transitioning a little bit just to KE, and growth at your experience and what’s going on in the company. So, you mentioned KE is in an exciting growth phase. What’s really fueling that expansion, and how are you positioning the company for the next decade forward?

Aaron Pyfferoen (18:25)

I mean, I think what’s fueling expansion is we have customers that want more and more of our services, right? And so, with those customers who want more of your services, because of how we take care of them. I mean, there’s a saying around here, we take care of our people, they’ll take care of our customers, right? And I mean, there is growth in renewable energy, there’s growth in data centers, there’s growth in food processing. I mean, so we’re in markets that I’d say are pretty critical infrastructure type markets, right?

And then as we add more people, I mean, more people have better ideas, better ideas create more opportunities. It’s delivering exceptional results in all the markets we serve. Being strategic on what opportunities and customers we’re pursuing. And we’re sitting in a room talking years out, right? I mean, every year, twice a year, we’ve been getting together as a leadership team and we go through a strategic plan and talk about things that what we need to do to keep this company growing and people taken care of and moving in the right direction.

And we’re small enough for that’s small, if I shouldn’t say that, we’re getting to be fairly large, we’re nimble enough, right? If we see a problem, it’s not this big corporate overhead, we could correct it. Let’s say we put a strategic plan together and one of our actions is something that, you know what, this one doesn’t make sense this year, this one really needs to be focused on, and we’re six months into it, we’ll make that adjustment, right? So, it’s something that we’re constantly talking about, what’s best for the organization.

And I think another one is, and we hear this with some of our vendors and some of our customers, we’re smart and contracting. We aren’t taking the risk that doesn’t belong to us, right? And something that we take risks we control, and you know, we manage it. We could help customers manage risk, things like that, but we really believe in taking risk that belongs to us. Keep it. I mean, I keep it focused on technologies, and we brought a guy in here that, I mean, his role is how do we use AI in the organization, right? And it’s wicked smart. I mean, they start talking to me and I’m like, what where right?

But it’s fun, right? It’s fun having our IT team, you just think of what they bring to the organization. There are just different, different challenges that we don’t necessarily think about sometimes in the construction world.

Wes Ashworth (20:27)

Yeah. And it’s kind of like not extremely typical. You know, you’d find sometimes that those types of companies tend to be a little bit, can be, stuck in their ways a little bit, maybe not quite as innovative, maybe not bringing in the new things. You guys are not that at all. How like, and I’ll let you speak to, guess, specifically to your team.

How do you create that just culture of innovation, creativity, problem solving, you know, obviously thinking a little bit outside of the box and adjusting, being nimble? What does that look like on the team?

Aaron Pyfferoen (20:56)

I mean, it’s a constant investment in the organization. It’s something that we do have. Every year, we have an annual summit where people come in, and we offer some training around leadership, offer training around technical skills, and it is a constant. It’s also, you know, getting people to own things, speak up, bring their ideas forward, right? It’s partnerships. It’s something that creates an environment where if you have a good idea, let’s get it out there.

I don’t know, field stuff, if there are some of the best ideas for installing solar apparatus or, you know, cable tray or things like that. It doesn’t necessarily come from me sitting behind this desk talking to you. It comes from the guys out doing it. So, getting down to the, where’s the work actually taking place, and getting those ideas back into the organization, and things like that. I’m making sure everybody knows they have a voice. I’d say that KE is unique in the aspect of, I know we talk about a little, but unique in the aspect that Carl has worn the tools, right?

I mean, you can ask me if I have been in the field, right? I’ve been there. I look at others in the organization. They started at a field level, and they know some of the challenges. So, we’re listening, right? And we’re where I think we’re more level than a lot of organizations. isn’t there the field guys, there’s the office guys. It’s kind of a, there’s still a little bit of that you can’t, I mean, but same time it’s more level than I’ve seen it elsewhere. So that’s cool, right? It’s an awesome thing.

Wes Ashworth (22:13)

Yeah, I love it. Absolutely. One of the unique things, KE is involved in both power generation, solar renewables, and on the power consumption side of data centers, industrial projects. First, can you explain that a little bit in terms of what you guys do, and then how that unique positioning gives you an edge in the industry?

Aaron Pyfferoen (22:30)

Yep, we have four distinct divisions here at KE. One being energy, which primarily supports solar battery storage opportunities, and done a little bit of wind work with that renewable, that renewable end of it. We have an industrial electrical work group that crushes plants, other biofields, and food processing. We’re doing a large distribution center for Walmart and Mankato now, and more on the electrical side of it, but flower mills, feed mills, that type of work, right? That’s what we talked about. They are the consumers of the power.

Then have a power service group that does need apparatus testing. I think they actually come out and do the testing on our solar industrial projects. They do critical infrastructure testing. When things need to run, they’re the guys out testing to make sure it’s capable of running another year, right? So, they’re, and our solar or time group is housed in that power service group as well.

And then we have an automation group that, I’ve personally seen them, like they’d lot of PLC controls. They go into a plant and they can increase that plant’s runtime at 10, 20, 30 % by setting up automation. And what’s cool about them is they’re beginning to, there’s always a need for like battery storage, like energy management, and they have the abilities to start to put those plans together. So, we’re doing, we’re going to start, probably call it beta time on that battery storage, but also the solar monitoring aspect of the company, that they’re able to come in and they understand it. It’s not Greek to them. So, you ask how that helps.

Right now, we’re building a behind-the-meter project. The solar group is building a behind-the-meter project for one of our large industrial customers. The power service group supports all the testing and commissioning of solar and industrial projects. they, you know, they actually would, we go out in a market, we’re a lot like Illinois, we’re building a lot of work that power service groups will alter and take on some of the work, right?

The automation supports a lot of the industrial work. It just, I think I’ll have successfully been involved. I got to work on my automation a little bit, but in all aspects of the business in a project, right? And it just, this is how it worked, right? So, it’s kind of cool. To me, one of the coolest things is that we, let’s say we can’t find a transformer or a recloser, where a piece of equipment gets damaged, a customer piece of equipment doesn’t show up. There are enough contacts between the power service group, the industry group, and the solar group that we actually had somebody remove a slot for the production line to get us in that slot and still deliver that project on time.

I laugh about it. When we need a rabbit to pull out of the hat, we have a network that can find the rabbit. There are some examples this year, like I said, it was just, wow, that actually worked. And there was nothing we did. It was just the fact that the network was so deep that we actually know people who are manufacturing things all over the place. It’s because of that power service tied to the energy tied to the industry group, tied to the automation tie. It’s cool to see that.

Wes Ashworth (24:50)

Yeah, it is cool. You can definitely see how it is a very unique advantage and kind of gives me a like up on a lot of that stuff.

Aaron Pyfferoen (25:18)

You understand the draw of what you need for the power on the one side and what you have. So, like, power quality is a big deal to us. And we start sitting across the table, talking about that. It shows pretty quickly that we’re experts in that field.

Wes Ashworth (25:30)

Without a doubt. Another thing you’ve emphasized is that renewable energy is no longer a transactional business. It’s about partnerships and the importance there. How is KE leveraging partnerships to scale its projects and create long-term success?

Aaron Pyfferoen (25:42)

I think something that we put a lot of focus on is going out and finding partners that aren’t just looking for a transactional one-off type project. We’re looking for portfolios, continuous work. If we’re going to make the investment in contracting and build that relationship and understanding of the partner’s key drivers, we don’t want it to be a one-off deal. We want it to be something that we’re talking about projects two, three years out. And that’s how we lead with our customer selection. We are actually out one-off jobs aren’t that interesting to us, right? It’s how do you carry forward? And it helps with our frontline workers that reminding them that we want to keep those guys working 12 months out of the year. Sometimes, you’ve got to remind them there is more than just July through December in the year. You got these six months that happened at the beginning, too. So, it’s creating a consistent workflow and letting customers know that if you feed us a pipeline of work, if you can’t, we have a little more flexibility with that.

So, there are things like that that would think those partnerships critical to that. So, it is being able to pick and choose a little more who you’re working with. And we have a lot of great customers. I mean, so, but it’s just the fact that we want to be able to look at what their plan is in two, three years out. What’s your plan five years out? Kind of marry yourselves up with those.

Wes Ashworth (26:42)

Yeah, absolutely. And this may be a really obvious question, but what makes a strong partner in today’s market? Like, what are some of the things you look for and you’re searching for when you look at that, again, that long-term partnership as well, where it’s years out.

Aaron Pyfferoen (27:09)

I think it’s having reasonable contract terms, not forcing risk down into somebody, that’s where it doesn’t belong. It has a backlog of work and a plan. I mean, it is being competitive in pricing. We understand we need to be competitive in pricing. So that’s part of it. It’s folks that are engaged in industry, and you know that they respect your partnership. So, if work slows down in one state, we go to another state, we will travel. And I think it’s also like enjoying working with people, right?

I’d say a lot of the folks that we actually truly enjoy being around them. I think you could say that lot of industries. would say the renewables, any industrial side for that, there are a lot of really good people that you actually enjoy spending time with. I don’t think that’s always the case. I think it’s just the fact that we’re, I feel that, personally, I’ve met a tremendous amount of friends throughout the industry.

Wes Ashworth (27:41)

Yeah, no, absolutely. One thing we sort of touched on earlier, we got into it, just the renewable energy workforce gap. And we talked about some of the things that you’re doing with the apprenticeship programs and getting into schools early and those kinds of things. What else is needed to bridge the workforce gap? What roles can other companies play in accelerating that training?

Aaron Pyfferoen (28:21)

Yeah, I think there’s, we need to look at sources of labor rather than people that weren’t always there, right? So, it’s not everybody who needs to have 10 years of construction. They have the right attitude and curiosity, and work ethic; they come in and be a PM, right? Or if it’s somebody that we’ve built a couple programs that in Illinois, there’s a program that is equity eligible for person or programs that you’re, hiring people who haven’t been in the construction field, and there is a heavier investment in training and a lot more supervision to kind of get them up to speed. But once they’re up to speed, it’s okay, right?

 And then I look at, built Prairie Island project here, it’s down the road from us. And we partnered with a company called Solar Bear that we actually brought in, and we put a package together on training a native workforce, right? Do we plan on continuing to roll with that package? So, it’s looking in places maybe haven’t looked, and that was incredibly successful. Maybe not as many people who came and traveled, but people that very interested in the job.

Went out and worked on the production, was there, right? So, I mean, it’s looking outside of maybe the traditional means, right, that helps. And it is also, I mean it is an it’s train train train, right? So, I think that companies in accelerate that training, I mean, it’s probably his partnership with those workforce centers. And even maybe you’re making an investment in that, in those workforce centers to get them skills that they have a base of skills, or even for me, it’s like getting involved in university, talking about programs and classwork and things like that that will help, right?

Wes Ashworth (29:47)

Yeah, without a doubt. And, you know, I think on this topic that will continue to be more and more needed and more and more critical as the energy transition kind of turns into an energy expansion. We touched on that. So, U.S. electricity demand is forecasted an increase by roughly 16 percent. You know, some say a little less, some say a little more. It’s kind of like somewhere around there. And that’s by 2029, which is really a major shift from just replacing coal to expanding overall capacity.

How does this change the way we think about renewables and give us some insight into that overall?

Aaron Pyfferoen (30:21)

I mean, I think you’re anywhere that 15 % number or electrical demand is in, flat, the last 15 years, and that 16 % number represents. I read some articles that 100 gigawatts of data centers have been announced over the last two years, like 100 gigawatts of power is needed for those data centers. So, there’s nothing quicker usually to get to market than a renewable project, right? Coal, nuclear, I mean, nuclear could take decades, coal is not really popular.

There are things that, as far as the ability to have a project and bring it to market, renewables are leading that charge, right? So, renewables aren’t the only answer. I mean, there’s going to have to be some gas and stuff to make that, make those data centers go on the actual additional demand in the country goal. it is something that the renewables ability deploy. I think it’s something that we’re seeing. I read an article that, let me get this math right. It’s 2100 gigawatts of power in the queue in the next 10 years. Not all that gets built, right?

Just think of it, half of that gets built, right? So, I look at, know, solar talk at 40 to 45 gigawatts a year being deployed. And you kind of think, okay, if we need 200, so we get to 100, I think that’s a huge number, right? That’s careers for people, right? I guess how I look at it. So, when I’m out selling to those folks talking about having a career in renewable energy, I mean, it’s an easy sell, right? Because it’s real, s

Wes Ashworth (31:29)

Absolutely. And then we touched on a little bit of this, to fully cover it, make sure we didn’t miss anything, how is KE, you and your teams, how are they preparing for the broader demand growth, both in terms of talent and in technology? You’ve definitely already shared a lot there, but anything else to add in terms of what you’re doing to support that increased demand and the growth that’s ahead?

Aaron Pyfferoen (32:09)

I think we’re always kind of re-evaluating our teams and where we need to continue to train. Where we need to shore things up and be selective of the partners we take that they’ll take us to places, right? So, you’re ending up in maybe a higher presence in one area versus another, and you plan for that. So, it’s not, you can’t just jump on everything all over the country. You’ve got to take a little more strategic approach to what opportunities you pursue.

Wes Ashworth (32:29)

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as we talked through that electricity demand driven by AI, EVs, electrified heating, manufacturing, and reshoring, to name a few, there are other factors there. But what types of clean energy infrastructure will need the most attention and innovation in the next five to 10 years?

Aaron Pyfferoen (32:46)

I think you’re going to see a lot more, you’re probably aware, a lot more batteries tied to solar. So that ability for renewables to act more like base load power, think is where in the next five years, we’re to see a tremendous shift in that direction. I think batteries started probably 18, 19, you started to hear about large batteries, these 100, 400 megawatts. And now we’re seeing a lot at all levels, we’re seeing batteries coupled with solar, right?

So it is taking that intermittent resource, putting batteries into it. And now you have something that performs more like base load power and at least gets touches the edges of where power is needed. Right? So, it’s something that will, you will see a, the decreasing role of those who are, you know, battery standalone battery jobs, batteries tied to solar jobs is becoming more prevalent in the marketplace.

Wes Ashworth (33:24)

Yeah, and touching on that topic a little bit more, just specific to data centers, which I know are a hot topic everybody wants to know about. But you’ve mentioned data centers are now looking at on-site energy alongside their five-acre facilities. Are we moving toward a microgrid model where big tech companies become their own energy providers? Unpack that a little bit for us and help us understand.

Aaron Pyfferoen (33:54)

I think we’re going to see it, right? It’s something that we’re doing. I mean, right now the challenges timelines of ISO interconnection cues. So that’s going to push these data centers. Look at all options, right? I they want to deploy it. if I can build a 300 megawatt, I think that’s the common number of what it takes to run a data center. I can build a 300-megawatt plant, and some batteries on it on this same site. I don’t actually have to be tied to the grid, or maybe the grid will come to me.

And maybe it isn’t all solar, maybe there’s some peaking plants tied to that, but it’s just a faster means of deployment of those data centers. We talked earlier, those 100 gigawatts of power needed to power these data centers announced over the last couple of years. The holdup on some of those is interconnection and ISO cues, right? So, these people, they got some money to burn, they’re gonna go, they are going to find a solution to get the product they want, right?

So, I think you’ll see, I think we’ll start to see some of that more islander type stuff, right? Those micro-grids.

Wes Ashworth (34:49)

Yep, without a doubt, without a doubt.

Aaron Pyfferoen (34:51)

I know they’re talking about some of that stuff in Minnesota now.

Wes Ashworth (34:55)

Yeah, it’s kind of everywhere. It’s becoming more and more of a topic, and you hear it and see it, and to your point, it’s kind of like those big, big tech giants that got deep, deep pockets, resources, means, and the motivation to get it done. So, it’s hard to, it’s hard to think it’ll stop. Yeah, exactly. Another, another hot topic just around, you know, policy, politics, navigating uncertainty.

Obviously, a big topic that keeps coming up. You’ve been through this with tariffs, ITCs, PTCs, so much policy uncertainty. How do you keep a long-term perspective on renewable energy when the political wind shifts?

Aaron Pyfferoen (35:28)

I think we mentioned I’ve been through multiple explorations, the ITC and PTC. And I’d like to think that we’re getting to a point in this country where we see the value of long-term energy planning. I mean, right now, the ITC and PTCs run for 2034. And having that stable energy policy is critical for long-term replication and success. I mean, it creates an environment, the tax credit creates a market for dollars to invest in these. And what we have today is a path.

Keep that moving. And also, with that moving, drives for like reductions in cost that drives, you know, better technologies. It moves the market forward to the point where it can stand on its own. And I think what I’ve seen probably the most of my career is the disruption of having it fractioned, you know, off and on, off and on again. I mean, I look at wind, like if the wind PTC was just, it just ran from the beginning of my career to now, would it be needed? Right. The intermittency of it creates, let’s get going. Then we slow down and we get going.

And companies will wait to see what’s going to happen, right? it’s I don’t know, so certainty around it, it’s a big deal to the industry. I mean, tariffs, I guess maybe another before I go to tariffs, like I always share, like back in 2011, I bought my first utility-size modules, a 280-watt Suntech module. I think it was a buck 80 a watt, right? And that was a spoken deal back then, right? So, so that’s like $504 for that 280-watt module. Today, you could buy a 590-watt module for the 30 in the 30-cent-a-watt area. So that module is twice as big and for 35 % of the cost, right?

So those improvements continue to come. So, you see, the cost curve to me is continuing to reduce. And, so think that is something that keeps you pretty optimistic, right? That you’re where you came from, where you’re at now, and they continue to improve. And now maybe it’s, the costs are levelized, but we’re getting more power out of the plants. I mean, there are things like that. mean, tariffs, I mean, especially in solar. I mean, I have seen, I’ve personally been out in DC lobbying against them.

And it’s something that. It is a real disruptor. Sometimes I understand that things have to be set right. But we saw the tariffs in the last section 201. And now we’re seeing a tremendous amount of manufacturing coming to the United States for modules. So, we’re seeing some of the shifts in those tariffs. And there are a lot of smart people all over. When you apply a tariff someplace, the people sit in a room and they come up with an idea of where we’re going.

Right now, to me, it’s pretty, it’s a lot of ingenuity in how to navigate around tariffs. It just takes a little bit of time to reset, right? So, I mean, there’s a place and a time for everything, right, I guess. And tariffs aren’t all bad, they’re not all good. mean, it’s just something we’ve to work through.

Wes Ashworth (38:11)

Yeah, yeah, I like that perspective too. Like it forces the creativity and innovation, and this industry is well known for that, and just kind of like, yeah, figuring it out in spite of whatever comes, like challenges, obstacles, whatever it might be. There are some smart folks around, and our problem solvers to continue to push this thing forward, which is great. We’re with time. I do want to cover a couple of different subjects as well. One is just industry myths, misconceptions.

So, what’s the biggest misconception about solar and renewables that frustrates you the most, and how do you respond to skeptics on the topic?

Aaron Pyfferoen (38:45)

Maybe three topics here. It takes a mix to power our country. I think the last time I read solar was like 3%, right? So, they can easily handle 10 to 20%. And, I don’t see coal, natural gas, hydropower, or nuclear going away. It’s just the fact that, I mean, renewables are going to displace some of that, right? So, it’s people have to realize it’s a mix. It’s not like everything’s going to be solar, but right now, the economics lead with renewables, right?

That is the form of energy that right now makes the most sense from an economic standpoint. So even as we evolve, let’s say we get into hydrogen, right? Hydrogen is kind of an interesting thing. I mean, that’s turned into a gas electrolysis. I mean, or pumped storage, right? That’s done by pumping storage up a hill and flowing it back down through a turbine. But those things are done with renewable energy, right? I mean, those, the ability, so those, those future technologies, renewables still play a part in it.

So, and then while we’re paying you to put the ITC is a tax credit. Nobody’s paying anybody anything. It’s not a government-funded program. And yes, you may pay less on your taxes, but overall, it’s a net gain. Those dollars, you’re still paying tax on the dollars you generate from the plant. I mean, it’s more like a short-term deferment of taxes. I mean, it’s not like the government’s right. I guess there is some stuff with the IRAs where some folks can receive a check now, but to me it’s always been a tax credit. It’s like the mortgage on your house, right? And my favorite one is probably people ignore the fact that fossil fuels are still subsidized.

Infrastructure investment, tax breaks, tangible drilling costs, I below market leases, this stuff happens every day. So, it’s not the fact, fossil fuels are still heavily subsidized, billions of dollars of subsidies. it’s something that, I mean, look around a little bit, right? So usually we can handle those arguments, right? Most logical people seem to agree with you, right? I mean, you don’t walk away with a different opinion.

Wes Ashworth (40:35)

Right, agreed. And speaking of that, and just solar obviously being a very economic form, if not most affordable form of power generation, can you break down a bit of the economics behind it? What’s driving that cost advantage? And how do the incentives like the tax credits or subsidies factor into the equation?

Aaron Pyfferoen (40:51)

I don’t want to underestimate the importance of the ITC. I mean, it is something that creates an investment community to fuel the funding of projects. You take that away, you lose momentum. The momentum drives ingenuity and technology, which turn drives cost down. So, I mean, without the ITC, will some projects still pencil? Yes, but it’ll be a fraction of those projects. So, when I look at, PPA rates, the $26 an hour wind rate in Texas is going be tough to beat, right? I mean, so you’re seeing these PPA rates for renewables.

In especially in like areas where they make the most sense, like from a resource standpoint, you know, like solar in Texas makes a lot of sense, you can, could see sub $30, $30 type PPAs and, and that kind of equates back into a build cost of roughly $1.25, you know, it can be given or take 20 cents type thing, but it’s on a utility scale plant. And when you have natural gas, there’s some natural gas that can be deployed at $900 or 0.9.

It’s maybe 90 cents a watt, is how they talk, or $900,000 a megawatt. That’s the plan to build the infrastructure, but you still have to buy gas. know, so it’s something like, are you adding another 20, 30 cents to that PPA rate to buy gas? So, you start now at a somewhat level, then you have to add the fuel. And I know with some of the stuff going on in Ukraine in past two or three years, we’ve seen gas be a size nine bucks, right? I so it’s something that now you have, you’re dependent upon what that fuel cost is. And there’s what solar is building and wind is built.

I mean, the resource is free, right? Essentially, I mean, the sun shines, the wind blows, right? So, you don’t have that cost associated with actually lighting something on fire, right? So, I think that the capex of the plant kind of washes out and there’s solar has intermittency where the sun doesn’t shine at night. And you start to pair batteries to that, which adds some cost. And as you start to look at that model, that’s why you’re seeing a lot of solar and battery storage projects, because they’re winning the economic model. And the ITC helps with that, right? I mean, it helps us develop that technology.

Wes Ashworth (42:50)

Yeah, without a doubt, good perspective. I like the way you phrase it as well. A few just closing questions as we get closer to the time. One is just advice for the next generation. I know we’ve touched on this a little bit. I know you’re passionate about it, so I want to get that out there. But if you were talking to someone, considering a career in renewable energy, whether it’s a high schooler, college grad, or career switcher, what would you tell them?

Aaron Pyfferoen (43:12)

The industry is full of great people, right? In my 20-plus years, I have been blessed to work with some great people, right? And we’re talking CEOs, to the frontline apprentice, to the new site coordinator, and some of those site coordinators have become presidents. It just, it’s, it is, you come across all the people that are like-minded, wanna live a good life, wanna have some fun, and people that you seriously invite into your home, share a meal with, I mean, they’ll be lifelong friends.

To me, I do hit on people a lot because I have been fortunate to meet a lot of great people. And then the opportunities, right? I mean, don’t just think of it as I am that field resource or that project manager. mean, safety, payroll, buying materials, and design. I mean, there are the running crews. It’s like the AI guy we have. There are opportunities, think about that list that goes on. I don’t necessarily believe that endless because that’s quite the word, right? But it’s, there are a lot of opportunities out there in renewables, and the key in general. Whether it’s the industrial side, the power service side, we have people that come into solar and end up in power services, people that come into the industrial side, end up in solar, right?

You’re too just, the opportunity here is very bright as well, right? Because it’s known, if you don’t want to be on the energy production side, you can take the energy consumption side, right? I mean, it’s, so we got some pretty strong teams here that are having a lot of fun.

 So, I guess to me, if I’m going to leave somebody, it’s work hard, own it, you will rise. Ownership, like owning issues, owning projects, it’s a big deal. So, if you own it, you will be recognized for it.

Wes Ashworth (44:46)

Yeah, sound words of wisdom and advice there. Getting close to the last question. So, when you look back at your career in renewables, it’s all said and done, I guess, what do you hope your impact will be? What legacy do you want to leave behind in the industry?

Aaron Pyfferoen (44:58)

I mean, positively impacting people’s lives, being known as a guy for doing it the right way, having integrity. I had a couple of individuals that worked for me in the past come up to me and like, indicate like, Aaron, you’re the best, best leader, boss, or whatever I’ve ever had. And that makes you feel pretty good. I wish you weren’t the easiest. kind of a, you can be a jack sometimes, right? But you were great to work with, right? I mean, and then you cared about me.

To me, it’s like that type of legacy that you help people be better than they could have been on their own. And I mean, never stop learning and growing. I mean, you learn something every day, and you stop and like, know it all, you’re probably dying to move on, right?

Wes Ashworth (45:35)

Without a doubt, without a doubt. Final question. So, fast forward 10 years, where do you see KE? Where do you see the renewable energy industry as a whole? And kind of final piece of that, what’s one bold prediction you’d be willing to make about where the space is headed?

Aaron Pyfferoen (45:48)

I see a renewable energy group and all groups at KE continue to grow. Like, we’re just about to approach that gigawatt club of gigawatt projects. And I would say that’s my bold prediction, and probably be like for KE, we’re in that four- or five-gigawatt club in 10 years. I mean, this is what I’m seeing. So, that’s pretty bold. I put multiple in my mind, but I think I’ll just throw it out to you what I’m actually thinking. So, it is the opportunity to take more work. Maybe I don’t think we’re ever going to want to get to the super large projects, but there’s a spot that fits us

And I think KE in general, there’s gonna be growth across all business units just because of quality people we have around here that you’re gonna see, whether it’s power services, O&M, it’s automation, it’s electrical industrial, it’s energy. We’re gonna grow all business units because it’s just, we’ve got a pretty solid core team advancement in storage will continue to add. So, I think it’ll become a time where you’re, you get to see a solar plant basically have the same characteristics as a combined cycle plant or something that you light on fire.

Wes Ashworth (46:48)

Yeah, absolutely. Those are good ones and a great way to kind of wrap it up and include just some final sentiments. And I love the bold prediction. I love that’s heavy growth, growth oriented, growth focused. So, with that, we’ll wrap up our conversation with Aaron, Vice President of Strategy, Renewable Energy at KE, really from driving workforce innovation to shaping a company that spans both the power generation side, high demand consumption side.

Aaron’s insights remind us that the energy future isn’t just about new tech, it’s about new thinking and really a focus on people, which I love, love that that’s come out in this conversation. If you’re in the renewable energy space or thinking about stepping into it, whether you’re a student, investor, operator, builder, let Aaron’s story be proof that careers can be forged in the field and scaled to the boardroom. And with that, thanks for tuning in to Green Giants, Titans of Renewable Energy.

Be sure to subscribe, share this episode with your network and join us next time for more conversations with the Trailblazers powering a cleaner future.